When dead airlines rise, where’s my refund?

It's alive ... maybe! / Photo by Carb B - Flickr
Duncan Fox saw a glimmer of hope when Mexicana Airlines recently announced it would return to the skies. Back in 2010, he’d booked a flight from San Francisco to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, but shortly before his trip, Mexicana filed for bankruptcy protection and then folded.

A subsequent email notification from his online agency, Yahoo! Travel, told him he should “rest assured” they’d request a refund on his behalf. But the $641 he paid never materialized. With Mexicana back, could he also expect his airfare to return?

Before I get to the answer, here’s what Yahoo! told Fox recently: Sorry, can’t help you.

“This type of incident is very distressing for passengers as well as the travel industry,” a representative wrote. “We are very sorry for this inconvenience. Please let us know if we can provide any additional assistance.”

Sorry for the inconvenience? I wouldn’t call a $641 loss an inconvenience. Rip-off, maybe. But inconvenience? C’mon.

Yahoo! recommended Fox initiate a chargeback on his credit card. But that’s a long shot. In an email, the company suggested he invoke the Fair Consumer Credit Act, which would allow Fox to contact his financial institution to dispute the charge. I’m not familiar with any such law. There is, however, a Fair Credit Billing Act which covers chargebacks, but they must be made within 60 days and the purchase has to be made within 100 miles of Fox’s billing address.

There’s a reason it’s called bankruptcy “protection.” When an airline is goes Chapter 11 in the United States, it’s getting protection from its creditors, which would include passengers like Fox. The airline has Fox’s money but doesn’t have to return it. Mexicana filed for Concurso Mercantil which is roughly the same thing as going Chapter 11 in the States.

But that’s the old Mexicana. After the airline ceased operations, it was reportedly sold to Grupo Med Atlantica, and if and when the airline starts up again, Fox and others will have a difficult time getting their money back from the new owners.

Paula Dwelly is one of those others. Two years ago, she booked a ticket between Sacramento, Calif., and San Jose Cabo, Mexico. But before their vacation, the airline grounded itself.

“We were told by a Mexicana representative by phone that we would be getting a refund,” she says. “We didn’t. When we call its number, it doesn’t even ring or give a recorded message.”

Will Dwelly and Fox ever see their money — or even a voucher — after Mexicana has been revived? Probably not. I’m reminded of Noah Markewich’s luggage claim with Alitalia. Back in 2008, the airline lost his wife’s bag on a flight to Italy. It promised to compensate her for the bag, as required under international law. But it didn’t.

Markewich asked Alitalia for an explanation, and it sent him an email saying it wouldn’t pay. The reason? Alitalia filed for bankruptcy protection that year, and is now a “new” company.

“Therefore,” it added, “any claim you may have against Alitalia is enjoined from being pursued or commenced because it arises from transportation provided before August 30, 2008.”

(I checked with Alitalia, and it confirmed its position — rules are rules.)

I can think of a few ways of avoiding this mess, besides not booking a ticket with a money-losing airline. Don’t make a reservation too far in advance, because no one knows the future. Always pay by credit card, and remember the 60-day window for disputes.

Long-term, this might be the time to ask if current rules and regulations offer enough protections to passengers. Maybe the Fair Credit Billing Act needs an amendment to address air travelers, which specifically waives the 60-day/100-mile rule. Or maybe we need to take another look at bankruptcy laws, to find a way to prevent folks like Dwelly and Fox from losing their tickets.

  • TonyA_says

    Michael_K, the real question is should they be allowed to resurrect [from feigned death] without honoring the tickets they sold earlier. In my opinion, NO.

    A creditor who lends the company money or sells the company goods or services on terms, knows they are risking something in order to gain profits on sales. They gain some idea how sound a company is the way it pays its debts. A passenger has no clue what is going on. There is no reason the DOT should allow an airline to fly if it is not financially sound.

  • Lindabator

    This is where travel insurance came in for some of my clients.  ONCE the airline goes into bankruptcy, any NEW insurance purchases will NOT be covered.  For instance, Mexicana filed on 8/3/10 – TravelGuard listed them as restricted against coverage later the same day.  Howver, if you booked them the day before, you WERE covered. 

  • Lindabator

    Amex has historically been pretty good about that.

  • Lindabator

    Correct it is ARC – but I think he gets a kick-back from ASTA!  HAHA!

  • Lindabator

    True – airlines are not covered by the law.

  • Lindabator

    Correct.  Airlines are exempt because of federal oversight laws, where the SOT was put in place to cover you from fraudulent SELLERS of travel.  Yahoo, here, would not be considered the seller, as it was in effect an airline ticket, and falls under that jurisdiction. 

  • Michael__K

    I agree with your general sentiment, but I’m not sure how to practically apply it.  No matter when an airline stops flying because it crosses some “financial viability” threshold, there will always be passengers holding (potentially useless) tickets for future travel.  Unless ticket revenue is “held back” like mikegun pointed out may be the case (at least for U.S. carriers?).

    If the resurrection issue is a by-product of general  bankruptcy law, then maybe that’s what needs to be tweaked.  I’m not sure it makes sense to have separate rules just for airlines.

  • Michael__K

    Thanks for clarifying.  Maybe I’m suggesting that the law/process has room for improvement.  

    I agree that everyone loses “real money” but vendors have more leverage to avoid a total loss (e.g. by requiring deposits and by cutting off services when payments are not made).

    IMHO employees (especially payroll for work performed) and customers are the most vulnerable and deserve the most protections, but based on what you and others have posted it doesn’t work that way.

  • TonyA_says

    No airline can fly (in or ) to the USA without FAA/DOT approval. So IMO the FAA/DOT should not allow a (foreign) airline to fly here is they screw American passengers. I’m not sure why that is so hard to do. Your e-ticket is heavily documented. It should retain its value if the airline screws up. In Mexicana’s case they were blaming HIGH LABOR COSTS. But why penalize the innocent passengers? AA is going through a similar re-org and will also try to lower its labor costs (by junking contracts). Yet, your AA ticket is still good.

  • TonyA_says

    Bingo!  An Excellent Reason to Buy Travel Insurance.

    Now just to be sure, here are the words in the TravelGuard policy:

    TRIP CANCELLATION AND INTERRUPTION
    The Insurer will pay a benefit, up to the Maximum Limit shown on
    the Schedule, if an Insured cancels his/her Trip or is unable to
    continue on his/her Trip due to the following Unforeseen events:

    (b) Financial Default of an airline, cruise line, or tour operator
    provided the Financial Default occurs more than 14 days
    following an Insured’s effective date for the Trip Cancellation or
    Trip Interruption Benefits. There is no coverage for the
    Financial Default of any person, organization, agency, or firm
    from whom the Insured purchased travel arrangements
    supplied by others. This coverage applies only if insurance
    was purchased within 15 calendar days of Initial Trip Payment

  • Lindabator

    Yep – and you can easily check those NOT covered before purchase, so no “gotchas!”  (This has been a boon in some cases, especially after 9/11 and after the banks’ meltdowns).  :)

  • Michael__K

    If you mean withholding FAA/DOT approval for the newly re-orged Mexicana (or Alitalia, etc.) unless they agree to honor old passenger tickets, that’s an interesting idea and certainly better than nothing, even if it doesn’t undo the pain inflicted on passengers who were holding unusable tickets for two years.  

    There’s also the question of whether and how FAA/DOT could prevent a re-orged airline from circumventing such an obstacle by re-branding/re-naming itself (perhaps under new management).

    If you mean revoking FAA/DOT approval for Mexicana earlier than the bankruptcy date in 2010 (which is how I interpreted “There is no reason the DOT should allow an airline to fly if it is not financially sound“)  then I’m not sure what that would have accomplished.

  • TonyA_says

    Actually both may apply. The latter if done early enough might have prevented future sales gone bad. Actually, at the time this happened, the FAA downgraded Mexico airports and that forced American to stop codesharing Mexicana. So if airports and airlines can be downgraded,  then why allow financially weak operators in the first place? Banning them will protect Americans more.

  • Michael__K

    It’s tricky because if they cut off “financially weak” operators (some of whom  might ultimately have avoided bankruptcy) then what happens to the passengers who already have tickets for future travel?

  • TonyA_says

    then you will need to buy insurance to protect against financially unsound airlines

  • AUSSIEtraveller

    the more legislation you have, the higher the fares & the more airlines WILL go out of business !!!

    It is that simple.

    Shoot the dodgy US bankers, not the businesses who have to try & survive, in the wake of the mess the bankers have left  !!!

  • AUSSIEtraveller

    fly icarus fly what a sily comment …

    “When a company goes into bankruptcy and is bought out by someone else, don’t they assume at least part of the debt (cents on the dollar?) ”

    If what you’re saying had to be the case, the new airline wouldn’t use old airline name.

  • AUSSIEtraveller

    without chapter 11, the US aviation industry would probably look like pre-deregulation days, right now.

  • Michael__K

    Then it’s basically back to the status quo — buy insurance or tough cookies.

  • bodega3

    Yahoo is certainly the Seller of Travel.  They are the agent of record.

  • bodega3

    But once bankruptcy is filed, you often can not purchase travel insurance protection.  You do need to check the list that each travel insurance company has for noninsureable companies.

  • TonyA_says

    @bodega3:disqus  @Michael__K:disqus
    Bodega said:

    But once bankruptcy is filed, you often can not purchase travel insurance protection.

    Well true, but not exactly.
    Once an airline files for bankruptcy, travel insurance companies will not cover FINANCIAL DEFAULT but they may still cover other reasons. So, I was referring to protect yourself from WEAK airlines before they go under.

    Anyway, I want to point out some very weird stuff. Below is link to TravelGuard’s Alert List.    http://www.travelguard.com/customerservice/alertlist/
    Note that American Airlines was added to the list  11/29/2011.
    Therefore, Travel Guard will not cover you for financial default by AA.

    But go ahead and price a ticket for AA on Travelocity. Note that they will still offer you travel insurance from TravelGuard, but they do not disclose that financial default is no longer covered.

    So buying travel insurance is not for dummies doing DIY. You need to do more research.

  • TonyA_says

    They can also write it off as a loss. You the poor traveler might not.

  • TonyA_says

    Wow, I thought Yahoo was just a search site. Didn’t know they are now some kind of travel agency. Hope google does not become a seller to travel, too. Looks like conflict of interest to me.

  • bodega3

    Airlines and hotels don’t contribute.  Sellers of their products contribute.  Your company needs to register if you sell to CA clients.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

    In theory this is true.  In practice, its a very small class of vendors that can do what you are suggesting.  Most vendors will have a total loss as they generally provide goods and services before getting paid.  Employees are much higher on the food chain than vendors

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

    Actually there are very sound reasons to allow an airline to fly when its not financially sound.  Business go through Chapter 11 bankruptcy for the purpose of getting stronger.  Regulators have to walk a fine line.  When they pull the plus, alot of people will be out of work, the vendors won’t get paid, etc.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

    Because despite my best efforts, I have not yet acheive omniscience.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

     You’ve been able to use Yahoo to purchase airline tickets and cruise, and rent cars and hotels since at least 1999.  They even had their own rewards system.  I used to use them until I decided that I was only buying directly from the actual travel provider.

    Out of curiosity, what’s the conflict of interest.  Yahoo (travel.yahoo.com) was just Travelocity with a Yahoo logo.

  • TonyA_says

    IMO if a search engine site accepts advertising money from other sellers of travel or ranks popularity of searches and displays the search results according to popularity, then it can manipulate the search results if it sold the products or services being searched.

    I thought Yahoo only private labeled Travelocity or other OTAs. I wonder if that made them a seller of travel.

  • TonyA_says

    My company is registered as a Seller of Travel in California. But since we are in New York and we are not based in California, then we are not part of the CA Travel Restitution Fund. We must have, and we do, a trust account where all monies collected from Californians are deposited first prior to paying travel providers or operators. But since we only do 100% of non walk-ins by credit cards and settle with providers immediately then really no California money goes into the account. Consider an airline ticket  sold over the phone or the net. We never really collect any money since we simply key in the credit card for ARC to charge on behalf of the airlines. So, I can’t see how the CA SOT system can help if an out of State vendor simply forwards billing information to another company owned by about 17 airlines and that company, ARC, actually collects the money on behalf of the airline who validated the ticket. The money is not with the Seller of travel, it is with the airline. If the airline goes bankrupt and stops operating both the passengers and agents are screwed. The ticket is no good and agents may lose commissions and other trade amounts. Since neither are withheld or deposited to a third party in trust until an airline actually provides service, then only the airline has the money for refunds.

  • Michael__K

    Customer can ask the credit card company for assistance

    The OP’s case demonstrates that this doesn’t always work (maybe the purchase was too far in the past?)

    Looks like major credit/debit cards are the only methods of payment accepted on Yahoo Travel.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bjorn.hallberg.1 Bjorn Hallberg

    If you pay with your creditcard you are normally covered by the card. One great airline to fly with is SAS, Scandinavian, very high ratings.
    I am a Swedish translator at http://www. the-business-translator.co.uk/ a global translation agency.

  • bodega3

    IMHO, the law was written by lawyers who know nothing about how the industry works, so your questions are good ones.  With the use of a credit card there is additional recourse for the client.  This really becomes more of an issue when people pay cash/check for travel.  I don’t get how this program was designed.  Not sure why only in state agents/agencies pay into the fund.  My guess is out of state moneies pay for running the program?  There really isn’t a lot of teeth in it and they certainly are not monitoring it well.

  • TonyA_says

     How are you guys coping with the recent closings of 2 regional carriers over there – Skyways and Cimber Sterling?

    Also didn’t SAS own a chunk of now defunct Spanair (closed end of Jan 2012)?

    SAS is 50%-owned by the governments of Sweden, Denmark and Norway. That’s a real good example to Americans :-)

  • bodega3

    Interesting as I have mentioned it several times on this site.  As a CA resdient, it would behoove you to read up on it since you handle your own arranging. Maybe since you are a lawyer you can understand the way it is written better that most of us who have read it.  They are constantly tweaking according to my contact at that office due to the confusion some of the wording has caused.

  • Joe Farrell

    Why didn’t the OP just submit a credit card dispute?  What am I missing here?  You someone waited for YAHOO to get him his money?  Really? 

    I understand being ignorant of the law but to sit on ones hands after an airlines goes belly up and not contact ones credit card company seems the height if ignorance  . . . .

    As for the legal issues – NO – none of the ‘new’ entities are liable for the old entities debts unless they specifically assume them –

    Airlines do not work like social security – there is not an account with your name on it where they hold your money until you fiy [ok = thats a joke, everyone knows social security is a tax, not a benefit] =-

    But the airlines sell you a seat on a future flight they are planning to operate.  They then SPEND that money immediately.  What you get is a promise to fly you in the future – its called ‘air traffic liability’ on their balance sheet – its the cost of flying you in the future.   But  your money was spent the moment you gave it to them -and probably sooner since most airlines are using credit lines against future sales to operate. 

    Anyway – back to the OP – does anyone know if Yahoo really did file a claim?  If they didn’t = well – then THEY are liable . . . they should be anyway.  He gave the money to YAHOO who then took the money and then gave it to the airline . .. 

  • Joe Farrell

    The new owner buys the ASSETS of the company – leaving the unsecured holders with nothing since the secured debt holders – the airplane and engine financers and the banks that run the lines of credit – get priority and everyone knows there is nothing left after that - 

  • Joe Farrell

     and in my experience bankruptcy is usually not filed with the advance knowledge of the party doing it – meaning they are having issues – keeping looks at their cash reserves and then one day realize ‘this ain’t gonna work.’

    If  the airlines plan a prepackaged affair then the need to discuss it with their senior creditors usually means the little guy gets protected or they’d scream bloody murder for not being told after advancing them more credit or forebearing collection . . .

    Moreover, Visa and Mastecard routinely hold millions of dollars in charged ticket money to protect them against charge backs – this number threw United BACK into bankruptcy AGAIN very shortly after coming out because the credit card processors refused to turn over money charged b y passengers because THEY did not think that the business plan was going to work – IIRC

  • bodega3

    It depends on how the ticket was issued.  We issue tickets through a GDS but the charge you see on your cc statement isn’t from us, but the carrier.  Net and bulik tickets are usually charged inhouse and then Yahoo would be the name on the cc statement.

  • http://www.facebook.com/theodore.rosenberg Theodore Rosenberg

    Unfortunately, that is Bankruptcy, airlines or drug stores.  However in most bankruptcy situations, the new company will make some accommodation to old clients in the hopes of recapturing their business. In bankruptcies I have been involved in, a typical offer would be a voucher good for about 10% of the loss on the original transaction  non-transferable, time limited, not much, but better than nothing