Some airlines refunding tickets for passengers who fear pat-downs

I’m sure most people will answer yes anyway. They’re directly affected by all this.

I’d imagine the airlines will finally make a fuss if a critical mass of people contact them to demand being refunded their non-refundable tickets because of this. That’s probably when they’ll have a “say” on this issue because it’ll affect them as well.

I am definitely with noted talk show host Alex Jones on this one. This is just another step in the enforcement of the dictates of The New World Order, for which all Americans must stand firm and shout “No!”. John Pistole would have been warmly welcomed by his mindset brethren Hermann Goering had he been a bureaucrat in WWII Germany. Just who we should be putting our faith in, a lawyer who couldn’t hack it after 2 years.

“screening crisis”? Really?

By those standards, my dirty laptop screen is a crisis, and my unmade bed is a full blown disaster.

I voted no, the airlines should not refund the ticket price on non-refundable tickets. It is not any of the airline’s policy. They probably do not like it as much as the general public does not like it. Why should they have to pay the price of a policy they had little control over? Not sure what reasoning would be used to make the airlines liable for a person’s sensitivity that they have no control over.

If you want to look, I have nothing to hide. If you don’t like the new system, please suggest another way to stop ppl from blowing up planes. I’m all ears… I hear a lot of ppl complaining about the new TSA regulations, but not a lot of alternatives.

What an absurd excuse. Hope she does not plan to marry. Even for health reasons she will not see a doctor. Personally the TSA is a smokescreen to make us believe the goverment is protecting us. There are two loopholes now to these security measures ; children under 12 and pilots. Who is to say one of them could be a terrorist.

I voted no, as I feel the onus is on the passenger to be aware of what security measures the TSA has put in place. It’s likely the only time you’ll ever see me stick up for the airlines, heh.

That being said, I do think Bellatrix and Katie sound like stereotypical femmenazis and are speaking in broad generalizations that don’t take into account the wide range of factors and nuances that can affect each person’s response to the screening process.

The OP may have lived in a situation where she was incredibly sheltered (cloistered, even) and to her, the possibility of either having a total stranger eyeballing her private parts or putting their grubby mitts all over them is panic-inducing. The point is, you both think less of this woman and felt free to hurl invective her way (by the way, it’s “sniveling” not “snivling”), yet you’ve never walked a mile in her shoes. Not everyone is as macho as either of you; how about a little tolerance for the rest of us “feeble” women who don’t particularly like being ogled or groped by strangers? Or maybe, how about just a little good ol’ fashioned empathy? If everyone would try acting like an effing human being, I bet half of the rude traveler stories you read on this and other sites would disappear.

Oh and by the way, Bellatrix, better double-check your snarky response: some people *have* reported that they’ve been through both the machines and the aggressive pat-down in one trip through the checkpoint.

The above audacious remarks makes them the ‘judge and jury’ as to HOW each individual SHOULD feel and act in this pat down controversy. Trauma is trauma and is only experienced by our beliefs and past experiences. No one can dictate how another person should feel about anything. Those of you who get your jollies over a hand on your crotch, I say, enjoy! Those that see it as abuse, I say to them, if the TSA agent goes too far, smack him or her in the face. The Constitution gives us the right to protect ourselves.
With the millions of travelers there is bound to be abuse. Take the case of a man who told the TSA agent he was wearing a urine bag and not to touch it. He did, and it burst, spilling urine down his leg.
The full scan Xray cannot see inside the body. The next “natural” step will undoubtedly be a finger up the anus.
“Sir, madam, bend over and spread your cheeks.”
The bottom line is: the terrorists are winning just by making threats at a cost of billions of dollars to us of tax money.
There has to be a better way to win this war!!

1) Those who say, “Well, it’s safer this way…” – - where’s the line for you? Would you literally strip naked? Would you then bend over and have a search performed? What is the stopping point? It is not safer this way, folks. The “evil doers” already have ways of concealing explosives in various openings, and have done so and succeeded. All these machines do is make the general public FEEL safer – they don’t actually accomplish it. As someone said elsewhere, if the terrorists are at the airport waiting in a (very long!) security line with explosives, it’s already too late.

2) It’s NOT a Low-res scan, by any means. Take a look at these REAL scans: http://www.optoutday.com/

Count me as an opt-out, and if they touch my junk, they get a fake squeal of happiness from me, followed by a cigarette.

“First off, they are only going to get to do one of the two; see or touch. Not both.”

First off, NEITHER should be allowed. And second, BOTH are being done to some people; don’t believe the TSA’s own lies to supposed myths.

“As a woman, reading snivling tripe such as this makes me cringe.”

So, would you like to show me your breasts and vagina? You’ll allow me to grab you and fondle you before you get into your car?

After all, you’re more than willing to tell other women to just accept sexual assault, so you’ll have no problems in stepping to the front of the line, correct?

The airlines are in a catch-22 here: they don’t want their planes blown up. But I think they’re entirely failing their customers by not standing up for them, and this doesn’t surprise me in the least. When’s the last time the airlines took a stand for passengers on any issue?

The New World Order is here!

I think the airlines should refund anyone who bought a ticket before these new guidelines went in to place. You should not have to be treated like a prisoner and give up your freedom to fly. Personally, I have already declined the new image devices (when flying out of New Mexico) and it wasn’t a big deal, they just did a very fast pat down, they don’t even touch your junk… or at least they didn’t there. And this was all before the media when viral.

I disagree with the replies from the airlines, and I think their contracts of carriage obligate them to issue refunds.

For example, AA’s contract of carriage says “American may refuse to transport you, or may remove you from your flight at any point, for one or several reasons, including but not limited to the following:…. Refusal to permit a search of person or property for explosives or for deadly, controlled, or dangerous weapons, articles or substances.” It then goes on to say “In the event the refund is required because of American’s failure to operate on schedule or refusal to transport, the following refund will be made directly to you -

If the ticket is totally unused, the full amount paid (with no service charge or refund penalty), or
If the ticket is partially used, the applicable fare for the unused segment(s).”.

Based on my reading, if you refuse to be screened, AA will refuse to transport you and then you can claim an involuntary refund.

United’s CoC says something similar.

If you bought a ticket before the enhanced, intrusive pat down was instituted, you should get a refund no matter if your tix are nonrefundable or refundable. How many people would buy tix to fly now? I know that I wouldn’t.

Truly, we do not know what the danger is with the AIT machines. There have been no studies published as to the amount of radiation that is transmitted. I’m pregnant, so I would definitely opt out. At the same time, I do not want some stranger to touch me inappropriately.

@barbie45, what you say about the OP not marrying or seeing her doctor is way out of line. There’s a huge difference between your life partner touching you and a complete stranger…similarly, you have built a relationship with your doctor…and your are being examined for medical reasons and in private with a nurse present.

Yes, we need to have security to prevent terroristic acts. What’s going to be next? Are we going to have to have full body cavity searches just to fly?

Good for Air Tran to be considerate to the OP’s situation and refunding her money.

I’m sure that most TSA workers are thinking “I didn’t sign up for this.”

As unappealing as having our own groins inspected sounds, imagine if YOUR job was to do the inspecting.

Get ready to grab a hold on that hugely fat sweaty guy that smells like death. Get ready to look between that fat lady’s jelly rolls. Get ready to spend the day being insulted and being called every swear word in all of the world’s languages.

I’ll venture to guess that most people who are up in arms about this, and who are saying that they’ll “opt out” and “never fly again” won’t follow through with it. I’ll also guess that many of those who are the most upset by the recent TSA policy changes don’t fly that much (based on my shared sentiment with other frequent fliers like myself). If some choose not to fly, there are alternative methods of transportation.

The polarized, reactive sentiments just aren’t practical, and just about everyone will eventually accept it because they’ll realize how inconvenient and time-consuming it is (and how much more expensive it can be for long trips) not to fly. In the end, people are selfish, and most people will end up doing things the way that’s easiest for them (i.e., step through the scanners). A small minority will also, for selfish reasons, feel the need to make their point by inconveniencing other travelers.

It’s also sad to see how polarized people can get about this issue, based almost entirely on the sensationalist news media. I fly quite a bit, and I (as a scientist) know enough about the scanner technology to know that I’m getting a far higher dose of radiation sitting in the airplane seat than I’m getting from the scanner itself.

There are two major fallacies in many of the comments above.

First, as a victim of a long-ago sexual assault, I can assure you that the very prospect of having a stranger of EITHER sex touching my genitals is horrifying beyond belief. I am NOT offended by Ms Gentry’s letter. I don’t think one needs to be a victim of rape to be repulsed by strangers touching our genitals. I think the whole thing is horrific, and is a violation of our 4th Amendment rights.

I, and I alone, should be allowed to choose who views and/or touches my genitals. I CHOOSE the doctor I want to give me exams. I CHOOSE my husband. I do not choose some Walmart reject to do either. And I should not be forced to do so, simply to be able to visit my family (who live too far away to travel by ground).

The second fallacy is that people will only have to endure one or the other – the porno-scan, or the grope. Not true. My 73-yr-old mother has a metal hip, and had cement injected into her spine where she shattered a disk. Both of those appear as anomalies in the scanner, and she will be subjected to the full grope after going through the scanner. Consequently, when she flies out to visit us tomorrow, she is going to opt out of the scanner. Why subject herself to naked photos and irradiation when she’s going to have to be molested anyway?

The most upsetting part of this is going to be the breast grope. She is only a few weeks out of breast cancer surgery and radiation treatment, in which she had rods inserted into her breast, and then recently removed. Her breast is very tender and is still healing. I’ve seen the photos of what they do to women’s breasts – they touch virtually every part of it except for the nipple. My mother’s surgical wounds are on the side of her breast…and some stranger is going to touch them.

This is after her horrifying experience last year when the TSA agent who groped her screamed “DID YOU PISS ON ME???” after she shoved her hand between my mother’s legs and felt dampness there — the inevitable result of not allowing her to use the restroom before the molestation.

@ James
There are some much simpler solutions that would be quicker and more effective than reports so far suggests the AITs (including international locations) + patdowns are.. They’re called metal detectors, and dogs.
(And a better organized intelligence network.. CIA is so far spread and have so much going on – but not good communication within its own organization, meaning that some things discovered will never go where it needs to go in time. But that’s another matter.)
If you don’t pass those (metal detector + dogs) – THAT’s when an enhanced patdown may be in place. In that fashion every passenger would get screened appropriately, not just randomly selected. Metal detectors to detect the obvious, and have trained dogs to sniff out narcotics or bomb material. (So yes, you’d need various dogs – but one dog can ‘service’ far more people than the scanners and patdowns can.)
So far, studies suggests that there’s plenty of things that can be hidden in the body that the AITs would not be able to detect (you can see the obvious for yourself on any of the images supplied by TSA as examples that there’s “hidden” areas on the body), as well as it having trouble / not being able to detect liquids and plastics. Plastics, whatever; liquids – dogs could sniff that out if it’s dangerous.
TSA should be asking more questions on carry-on as it’s going through the X-ray machine. Plenty of people have mentioned having had prohibited items in their bags (forgotten from previous travels when they were allowed or non-flight travels) – and no questions at all from TSA about it..

TSA could also have better personnel trained to handle travellers with disabilities or special needs – while I’m sure there’s plenty of TSA employess who are sensible and understanding, there seems far too many cases of people who seems almost purposely humiliated by way of their disability to ensure that people will opt for the scanner rather than patdowns, should they be selected for it. Even with the mind-set (despite officials statement that the enhanced patdowns are not designed to make people opt for the scanner, there’s still been several employees quoted in the press saying that they were in fact designed for that purpose) there will still be plenty of people who can’t go through the scanner for very legit reasons, and there’s NO reason for ANYBODY to be completely humiliated every single time they want to travel [people with metal parts in the body, for example, despite bringing proof?] simply because TSA wants to set an example to other travellers.

I doubt I’d be hysterical for either a scan or a patdown, but I’d still be very uncomfortable going through either (especially when I know there’s far better alternatives) – while quite practical in nature, I’m also very private when it comes to my own body; that’s for me and my husband to touch. Not for a stranger checking to see if i have hidden a 3.5oz deodorant on me, touching me in such a manner that fits the description of something that you could successfully sue someone in court for. In order to travel. When there are far better alternatives to ensure the safety of said travel.

THAT said – on the topic, I think it should be more case by case, so I don’t want to say either yes or no. Some people may have bought tickets either before enhanced patdowns were put in place, or being completely unaware of the what they may have to endure in order to fly. Some people may have physical, psychological, mental or religious reasons for not wanting to be seen naked, if a somewhat distorted view, or touched intimately and/or inappropriately – and if there was no indication of this process prior to purchasing the tickets I think that the airlines should consider refunding tickets. It shouldn’t take much from the airlines to add a message when selling tickets ‘In order to board an airplane all passengers much pass through security checkpoints, which may include AIT scanners and possibly [enhanced] patdowns by TSA personnel.’ [Link to TSA's website for up-to-date travel stuff.]

Concerning the “as a woman” comment:

I agree with those who have expressed empathy, based on the possibility of prior trauma, possibly due to a previous sexual assault. We don’t know if this woman fits into that category, but if she does, it could be she simply said “as a woman” rather than “as someone who has previously experienced sexual assault” in order to guard her own privacy.

There’s no way any of us can truly know where she was coming from when she wrote this. However, as someone who has a member of immediate family with PTSD, there are things that can traumatize someone who suffers from this disorder that wouldn’t bother the average person.

If someone who purchased tickets in advance needs to cancel due to advanced stress, it would be nice if the airlines could take it on a case-by-case basis.

However, they’re certainly not legally obligated to.

I actually didn’t vote on today’s survey. I don’t think it’s a black-and-white “yes” or “no” answer – we needed a third option for “take it on a case-by-case basis” or something.

Folks with PTSD, especially PTSD that originated from sexual assault, should really think twice before flying. Either that, or purchase a fully refundable ticket. It comes down to personal responsibility, only taking on those things that you can truly handle.

Of greater concern are some of the high-profile instances that have come to light in the news recently about people with disabilities having difficulites with the TSA. (i.e. the woman flight attendent who was ordered had to take out her breast prothesis and the bladder cancer survivor who ended up soaked in his own urine due to a clumsy TSA search.)

This is DEFINITELY NOT making reasonable accommodations for the handicapped. In the case of the woman flight attendent, it’s not like you can just glibly tell her “well, if you don’t like it, don’t fly” since flying is what she does for a living.

If these type of heavy-handed searches of the handicapped continue, I could see “Americans with Disabilities Act” lawsuits flying over this issue -

If you bought your ticket after the new policy went into effect: no refund.

To borrow from Hunter S. Thompson, “Fear patdowns or loathe patdowns”?

Regardless of how one feels about the TSA regulations, I think it’s entirely inappropriate to expect the airlines to refund a nonrefundable ticket in light of the new policies. It’s simply not their fault.

People buying a ticket have a contract with the airlne, not the TSA, and it’s the latter that sets up the security procedures. Remember how people complained, after 9/11, that security procedures had been too lax until then? The Patriot Act intruded on our rights far more than scanners or pat-downs, but we saw it as affecting other people, not us. Boycott? For a boycott to work, it has to have a marked effect on sales AND the companies have to know the reasonf or any sales drop, AND be willing to somehow exert pressure on the government to relax security procedures. And then, if another hijacking, or other security incident (e.g., shoe bomber) occurs? We would all complain that the government and airlines aren’t doing enough. Peope are still suing airlines over the 9/11 hijackings, saying they didn’t do enough to prevent them. Imagine if airlines could relax security procedures and used as an excuse the fact that customers complained. Bring on the lawyers!

@ Everyone who pointed out that PTSD from sexual assault is a very real thing and that these new procedures violate such people in a very real way…

Thanks.

For those of you that bring up the 4th amendment, remember that the US Supreme Court has restricted the scope of the 4th amendment especially in regards to searches at airports. I don’t know how they would rule on this particular issue, but based on precedent I wouldn’t be too quick to say that they would rule that the 4th amendment applies in this case.

As to the airlines refunding, I said no. I feel that the best way to show your displeasure at this issue is to directly address the people responsible for this stupidity, the government – not a private company.