Leaning leaners and the airlines that let ‘em

An actual photo from the flight. My laptop survived.The first thing I noticed about the passenger in seat 9C on a recent US Airways flight from Orlando to Washington was that he was carrying a light sabre.

You know, as in Star Wars.

After we reached our cruising altitude, I got up to use the restroom, and when I returned, I found that he had reclined his seat — all the way. I had a little problem with that because I was in 10C, and I was trying to write a column on my laptop.

The seat pitch in economy class is small enough to give a Lilliputian claustrophobia, so it should come as no surprise that my PC wouldn’t open enough for me to use it.

No problem, I thought. I’m the travel troubleshooter. I can handle this.

“Sir,” I said, as politely as I could. “Would you mind sliding your seat up a notch? I can’t open my laptop with your seat all the way back.”

No answer.

“Sir?” I said, adding a little volume.

Nothing.

I tapped him on his shoulder gently.

“Please,” I said. “I can’t work.”

“I’ve been up since 4 a.m.,” Mr. Star Wars murmured, and turned away.

“What a coincidence,” I said, my blood pressure rising. “So have I.”

I had several options. First, I could escalate the confrontation. (But the man was traveling with a toy; a troubling sign.) I could move to a different seat. Or I could ask a flight attendant to intervene.

I’ll be honest: I felt like smacking Mr. Star Wars with his plastic weapon.

I picked door number three: to bring this ridiculous encounter to the attention of a flight attendant. You’ll probably find his response — and his resolution — to be interesting.

“Kindergarten,” he sighed, when I explained my predicament. “We’re on your side, but there’s not much we can do.”

The attendants didn’t want to confront Mr. Star Wars because they shared my misgivings, that this particular character might not be completely stable. The flight was full, even in first class. Otherwise, I’m pretty sure they would have offered me an upgrade for the rest of the short flight.

“It’s a shared space, isn’t it?” I asked.

“Yes,” said the attendant. “Just because you can lean all the way back doesn’t mean you should.”

How about the empty jumpseat, I asked him. Could I sit there? No — that’s against regulations, he said.

So how did this standoff end? I’ll get to the solution in a second. But first, a few words about who is to blame for this mess.

Ultimately, it’s a passenger’s responsibility to know proper flying etiquette (and don’t laugh –— there is such a thing). But there are other culpable parties. Chief among them, the airline.

Think about it. If the seats in economy class were made for adults, then we wouldn’t have to put up with this childish behavior. If US Airways offered a humane amount of legroom, then Mr. Star Wars could lean back and I could work on my laptop.

Pie in the sky? OK, how about limiting the amount of lean-back on the seats, if you’re going to wedge them that close together? That’s not unreasonable.

Too hard for your aircraft mechanics? Alright, here’s another suggestion: Why not remind passengers that they’re in a shared space and request that they ask before leaning. Mr. Star Wars nearly cracked the screen on my laptop when he forced his seat all the way back.

Had he done that, then I would have been forced to use my light sabre.

I’m kidding. I always pack a loaded antique pistol in my carry-on bag. The TSA hasn’t stopped me yet.

If an airline can’t manage to remind its passengers to practice common courtesy, then it should empower its own employees to step in and mediate the inevitable conflicts. I could tell the flight attendants just didn’t want to get involved.

I loved their fix, though. An attendant opened a tray table in the galley, I set up my computer and worked while standing until we started our descent. Then I wedged myself back into 10C for the rest of the flight.

So what does all of this mean to you? Next time you feel like taking a nap on a plane, please, please, ask the person behind you if it’s OK to go back.

You don’t want to be a rude recliner.

  • Frank Windows

    Let’s me start by saying that this is the airline’s fault for squeezing in extra seats to the point that it ignites these petty wars between strangers. If every airline had 34″ of seat pitch (like JetBlue and United’s Economy Plus) we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    I’m short, but I find the angle on most airline seats so upright that it hurts my back, so I need to recline a little just to take the pressure off. When I do lean back, I do it slowly and in very small increments, just enough to keep myself comfortable. (I also check out the person behind me and keep in mind if they are big or tall.)

    I also nearly lost a laptop to a rapid recliner. I went out and bought a netbook. Problem solved. I also fly United Economy Plus and Jet Blue most of the time.

    I’m dismayed by the number of people commenting that reclining is their God-given right. It reminds me what a bunch of selfish a?????es people can be. Is it your right to recline? I suppose. Is it your fault that the airlines pack us like sardines? No. But that doesn’t mean you can’t exercise a little common courtesy and a “we’re all in this together” attitude. Would it kill you to inconvenience yourself a bit for the sake of the person behind you? No it wouldn’t, so don’t be a jerk.

    Chris, a hint for you: Airlines often hold the exit rows open until the last minute. Ask for a seat in the window exit row (or the second one if there are two window exits). The seats in front don’t recline.

  • emanon256

    I have heard them announce it on several long haul flights during meal times. Unfortunately, not all people comply.

    I was on one flight when the person in front of me reclined all the way, and when they served the meal, the tray didn’t even fit. The flight attendant asked her to put her seat up during the meal service and she said “I am not eating.” She asked her to put it up for the passenger behind her and she said, “Why don’t they just recline too.” When the FA said he can’t recline because then the person behind him can’t eat, she put her seat up, then quickly put it back after the FA left. Sadly, I had to stand in the aisle to eat until the woman in front of me complained that I was distracting her by standing there. Seh then called the FA, who told her that if she won’t put her seat up during the meal service, she better just deal with it. What was ever more onoying, is the woman had her knees up on the seat in front of her and the person in front of her could not recline and also complained. The FAs argued with this woman for the entire flight over various problems, but ultimately never did anything to stop her.

  • http://elliott.org Christopher Elliott

    I’m just now looking at these comments (remember, I’m five tiimezones away from the action). Let’s please keep the discussion polite. The name-calling is unhelpful.

  • emanon256

    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I love it when the people look, then recline slowly, and don’t go all the way, its a win-win! Also a few times I have had people ask if they can recline, and I always let them, but when I am in a low pitch seat, I ask them if they won’t mind not going back all the way, and those who are nice enough to ask, always comply.

  • http://twitter.com/DutchessPDX Dutchess

    What does everyone think of the Knee Defender things that prevent the seat from reclining?
    I’ve thought about buying them but somehow feel wrong doing it.

  • mszabo

    As someone who always runs hot, I would also love that solution :)

  • driven2travel

    The moral is, if you need or expect to work in-flight, buy a seat in C or F. Appeals by FAs don’t work. I watched a fellow traveller use his Blackberry throughout takeoff and landing despite repeated requests from crew and a PA from the Captain.

  • mszabo

    How much exactly is a notch anyway? To me I would have said the total distance from full upright to full recline is about 1 notch.

  • http://www.facebook.com/asiansm Dang Ph

    Economy Airlines Seat are not designed for work. Unproductive and wasting rest time. That’s the reason the upper class called Business Class so people can do business and work if they feel the need to.

  • http://profiles.google.com/saucywench S E Tammela

    Do we have the right to recline?
    Do we have the right to not be crowded by the seat in front?

    Here’s another perspective: does the right to work on a laptop trump the right of the person in front to recline?

    Maybe that makes it a harder to choose sides. When we buy an economy seat, we really haven’t got the right to demand either one. We get what we pay for – and all we paid for is a seat to sit in until we get to our destination.

  • http://www.jeffshelby.com/ Jeff Shelby

    I always ask and I never recline all the way back. I’ve asked people in front of me to move their seat back up – not all the way, but just enough so I can work – and I’ve had polite responses and rude responses. I wish they’d restrict the mobility of the seats. It would just make it easier on everyone. An extra few inches back isn’t going to make you more comfortable, but it is going to infringe on the space of the passenger behind you.

  • LivedinItaly

    I’ve been fortunate ~ 85% of the time and have had the person raise their seat back. I’ve even told them they can bring it back a little. The one or two instances where the passenger did not raise the seat back was uncomfortable and my getting out of the seat for other passengers in the row did aggravate that passenger. :)

  • IGoEverywhere

    We all become alphas during ordinary flights, in ordinarily small seats. The smallest 94 pound passenger, is the one that must recline 100%. This happened to me on Delta Paris to JFK. At 6’4, I could not even eat and the Delta crew was totally unsympathetic. I put on my headset and kept beat to the music underneath the seat until the ungrateful passenger complained to the attendants. “Children!”
    She went to the restroom in anger, I shoved the seat up and blocked it with my knees until we landed. Vote today for courtesy, not politics. It makes you happier.

  • SK

    I’d be happy to be courteous for the fellow traveler behind, but what if the passenger in front reclines? If I don’t recline I’d feel squeezed. Does that mean that we should ask all passengers in the row to bring their seats upright?

  • http://www.facebook.com/sommer.gentry Sommer Gentry

    I think coach / economy seats should not recline, not even one inch. I never recline mine, because I think the person sitting behind me deserves that space.

    If the chairs are really so much more comfortable in a reclined position, then the airline should lock them all in the same reclined position.

    It’s just not right to give two different passengers a claim on the same space. It’s either my space, or it’s someone else’s. Locked seats make the boundaries clear.

  • Joe Farrell

    I tend to be a little more aggressive after being nice fails –

    Step 1: “Excuse me, but when you recline all the way I cannot open my laptop and have no leg room . . .

    Step 2 after being ignored: “Excuse me, but you are not the only person on this aircraft and I would appreciate if you could move your seat forward a little bit.

    Step 3: I cross my legs and start moving my legs – kind of like I have restless leg syndrome – a constant drum beat against the back of the seat in no particular rhythm – like a small child kicking. After about 4-5 min of that the seat magically goes forward and the problem resolves itself.

    About 70% of the people fall into category 1, 25% category 2, and a few rare buttheads require category 3.

    I have had a flight attendant come up to me one time and ask me to stop ‘kicking the seat.’ I explained to him that I nicely asked him not recline the seat so far twice and was ignored both times. I asked the flight attendant what he would do if I asked him to have the complainer move his seat – got the DFAL – “dirty flight Attendant Look” and the F/A said to the complainer “Sir, if you move your seat forward a little bit I’m sure you will no longer be in contact with his leg.”

    I realized I should have just said I was disabled with restless leg syndrome – which would have shut the FA faster than asking him to cover a red eye – but it was the 5th flight in 2 days and I was tired of being nice -

  • http://www.facebook.com/asiansm Dang Ph

    The next generations of Economy Seat are designed differently. The seats have sliding cushions but the seat back is pod-style and does not recline and inconvenience the passenger behind you. ANA have its on B-787 Dreamliner.

  • Joe Farrell

    boyfriend or the teddy bear?

  • Joe Farrell

    I would belive that leaning over and sneezing very close to the person’s head might get them to raise their seat to the full upright and locked position . . .

  • Steph55110

    Flight attendants should have more “power” to make flights bearable. Besides the pitch of seats they should be able to force those who bring two carry-on items to put one under the seat when the flight is full. I also found out when a passenger was exceedingly loud that the FA was thrilled when a few of us asked her to have the passenger quiet down. Apparently FAs can’t do that but if another passenger complains, they can do something. In this case, the loud passenger was so drunk that the pilot considered landing early to put her off the plane.

  • jebaker

    I have a spinal condition that makes it very painful for me to recline my seat, so when the person in front of me reclines fully I have to be squashed in what is left of the seat. Since there is so little space between seats, there should be limited reclining

  • KneeDefender

    People have been arrested for fighting about a reclining seat. (And for fighting about who gets to use an armrest.) But for using a Knee Defender? Possible? Theoretically. Likely? Not at all.

    I say that as the guy who invented the product and who sells them – and since Google sends me a link every time any on-line news piece mentions Knee Defender, I would have seen any such article. And I haven’t seen any such article.

    And Chris has known about the product since Day 1, and I think he would have heard about any such incident – and reported on it. So, I’d say that that has not happened.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000171447550 Margery Wilson

    I am a frequent flier. I have never, not once, reclined my seat on a domestic flight. Oh wait…once I was upgraded to a lie-flat seat in first class and I admit I played with it. But, even then, I opted for upright most of the way. I don’t get the appeal of putting the seat back, I don’t find it at all comfortable. It would be nice if airlines would opt to design seats for adults, but I know that is not really on the table.

  • KneeDefender

    I’m the guy who invented Knee Defender and who sells them. So I’d like to know about any such problems using my product. In other words, I don’t think your assertion is correct.

    After all, if anyone bought a Knee Defender and found that it was ineffective, as you suggest – Wouldn’t he/she would contact us about that? To ask for help and/or a refund? Well, that hasn’t happened.

    In fact, our customers find Knee Defender to be highly functional and effective. Plus, every journalist who has tried Knee Defender has reported that it is incredibly effective.

    Just a few weeks ago, Ira Glass did a segment about it on his radio show, This American Life. The segment was an interview, during a flight, of someone using the product. And, plain and simple – It worked. Don’t take my word for it – Go to the This American Life website and check it out.

    Those who don’t like Knee Defender can make fair arguments as to why people shouldn’t use it. I’ll disagree with those opinions, but I accept that there are fair arguments to be made. However, I take exception when people assert “facts” that just don’t ring true.

  • LBJROCK

    Teaching manners by being rude is like trying to teach a kid not to hit by spanking him. Sounds to me like you were both in the wrong.

  • JenniferFinger

    I voted no, but that’s because I’m opposed to restricting the ability to recline in any class. If there’s not much space between the back of one’s seat and the row behind it, I think reclining at all is inconsiderate. I’ve been on my share of flights crammed in behind recliners, and I’m not a tall person-only about 5 feet 3 inches.

    I think the airlines need to put in seats that don’t impose so much on the spaces behind them. But of course, they won’t because profits are everything and they’re too expensive.

  • Flipper

    Technical problems should have technical solutions.

    It’s wrong to copy movies, so the discs they are distributed on have DRM so that you can’t. (or at least you know you’re doing something wrong by breaking it).

    If it’s wrong to lean the seat back more than x inches, the airlines should reset the limits on the seats so that they can only go back the appropriate amount of recline.

  • itzmelo

    On a Delta flight from Atlanta to Amsterdam this year, I was stuck in a window seat economy; my company was cutting back on expenses and business class wasn’t allowed. After dinner, when the cabin lights went out, I snuck a peak at the middle-aged couple behind me. Their seats were reclined and they appeared to be asleep. I eased my seat back, only to have it rudely shoved forward by the woman. I turned around to see if there was a problem. She very nastily said that I couldnt’ recline my seat because it hurt her knees. I had seen her in line for the restroom earlier, and noticed she had on trendy 5″ platform sandals, so I kindly suggested that perhaps she could remove her lovely shoes and her knees wouldn’t be so high. She snarled at me and called me a “princess” and told me to “get over it”. Then she pulled her blanket up, leaned back, and went to sleep. I waited 10 minutes and quietly eased my seat back. She immediately shoved it forward again, and called said “I told you NO, you f***king b*tch!” I turned around and saw her husband was glaring at me too, but strangely enough, he had not shoved forward the seat in front of him, which was leaned back and occupied by a businessman. I said “I am allowed to recline my seat, the same are you are doing”. The husband said “you want to make a f***king bet?” I rang the flight attendent call button and told her what was happening. She told me to lean my seat back, and i did, and the wife shoved it forward again. This scenario continued 4 times in rapid succession, right in front of the flight attendent. The flight attendent told them I had the same right to recline as they did, and they even told her that I didnt!! Finally the FA told the nasty couple behind me that if they did it one more time, she was going to have the captain come back, and if that happened, there would be charged filed when we landed. They finally stopped shoving my seat, but I was treated to foul name-calling and seat-kicking the entire remainder of the flight. As a million-miler Diamond, I can honestly say I have never met any traveler more worthy of the title “Ugly American”. I emailed Delta and they gave me 25,000 miles for my troubles, but it didn’t really take away the bad feelings the experience gave me. When flying domestically, I rarely lean my seat back, but internationally, we all need that precious few inches the recline that give us.

  • KneeDefender

    For an additional perspective… A NY Times travel column from March of this year stated this about the airlines and Knee Defender:

    “WHEN I put the question to major United States carriers, few responded. Those that did ultimately left it up to passenger discretion.”

    And about the product being “confiscated”? Huh? They don’t even confiscate cell phones that are used when they shouldn’t be – and in theory, using a cell phone at the wrong time can cause avionics to malfunction, and thereby cause the plane to crash.

    Airline personnel can do lots of things to you. But, while they may lose your personal property (i.e., your luggage), they may not confiscate your personal property.

  • Tubbie

    Common courtesy dictates all else if it is requested or shared politely. People feel so entitled as to what is owed to them and toss out a ounce of decency.

  • Frank Windows

    Why should we be any more polite than that guy with the light saber? this is rude behavior and needs to be pointed out as such. With all due respect, Chris, if you can think of a better way to describe someone who is concerned only with themselves to your detriment, I’m all ears/eyes.

  • technomage1

    Slightly more than a titch or smidgen but less than a gallon. It depends on how far the seats recline. If Chris couldn’t open up his laptop, I’m guessing the seats reclined quite a bit. Therefore, it wouldn’t have been difficult for Mr. Star Wars to raise his seat a bit out of courtesy.

  • Linda Jordan

    I like to get up frequently (I always do an aisle seat) and stretch my legs when someone does this to me. I grab the head rest to help me up and as expected it wakes the person up. I smile sheepishly and apologize and explain it is a tight squeeze with the seat all the way down. That also does the trick. Next time i’m going to try the overhead air trick.

  • ExplorationTravMag

    So I should have remained there, crammed in my seat, in tremendous pain because it offends your sensibilities that I respond to an incredibly rude person? I give what I get, Period.

    This particular leg was the end of my trip and that seat being reclined as far back as it would go resulted in my having to go see my rheumatologist as soon as I landed and spending three days in bed, taking morphine. But, yeah, you’re right. I should have just shut up and done nothing at all once my repeated, polite requests he not put his seat back all the way were ignored.

  • Ed Boston

    As I said, I found stories of “others” reporting them being taken. I can’t vouch for the validity of the report.

  • Travelgirl 22

    It seems that most of these issues would be solved if the airlines would get seats that don’t recline quite as much. Going back and fixing existing planes might be tough, but I’m sure there is someone out there who can design a better airline seat and the airlines should demand that airplane builders give them better options.

  • Annette

    I’m sorry but I can’t condone that action. I never recline my seat – even on long overseas flights. I do have a back problem and bring a small pillow for my lower back, which helps considerably. On a flight once the woman behind me used the back of my seat (which was NOT reclined) as leverage every time she got up and sat down, causing it to snap back into place every time she let go. I ended up with a severe case of whiplash which required almost 2 months of chiropractic visits and considerable expense. The next time someone does that to me I’ll be asking for their contact information so I can send them the medical bills.

  • KneeDefender

    Fair enough. Correct – you didn’t vouch for them. I should have made it clear that I was taking exception to those comments, themselves. Thanks.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Hanna/100000038010477 Jason Hanna

    So, the seat was reclined while you were in the bathroom, and yet you still know it nearly cracked the screen of your laptop?

    You should know better.. We don’t react well to people who exaggerate round these parts.. lol

  • johnb78

    That’s amazing. Where the blazes did the lunatic in front of you think you were going to put your legs?

  • emanon256

    Whats harder to believe is that a one size fits all product works for every seat in every airplane and has never once generated a single complaint.

    I trust what my college of many years told me and do believe what he said to be fact.

    I just asked him for details and here is what he sent me verbatim.

    1. The tray table had to be down, so if they recline before you get your tray table down, you are SOL. They can also recline when you get up and then you are SOL.

    2. On some seats, the angel on the tray table arms is such that the devises slide up when the person reclines.
    3. On some seats the bars on the tray table are to the side of the seat with enough of a gap making the device useless.
    4. When the tray table is in the armrest, the device is useless.
    5. Why bother with a refund, it was $20, I though I would give it a try, my loss.

  • johnb78

    Wow. Which airline was your FA on? Remind me to avoid the hell out of them…

  • johnb78

    That’s a silly extreme though. As a decent rule of thumb, single aisles should be no-recline.

  • johnb78

    That’s vile and I don’t envy you such a foul flight, but highlights the vile hypocrisy of the couple involved rather than the reclining question (since they were reclined themselves). If the lady had been seated upright and trying to work, the conflict would have been much tougher to resolve.

  • johnb78

    Standing up is actually a thing that humans can do. Maybe give it a go?

  • johnb78

    You had a case of an imaginary disease which required two months of visiting a pretend doctor? My heart so bleeds right now.

  • KneeDefender

    If you look at the photos of the product at the website, you can see that your “one size fits all” comment is off-base.

    Knee Defender is specifically shaped to fit seats with tray table arms that vary greatly in their shape and thickness. The product is U-shaped, and inside that U there’s a series of “steps”, and it’s those steps that allow a product with no moving parts to fit so many different airplane seats. Those steps make the U-shape progressively narrower. So you put the U-shape down on the arm of the tray table until you get the right fit. The rubbery coating on the inside of the U-shape (on all of those steps) helps to hold the Knee Defender in place.

    Does it fit every style of airplane seat? Almost all – based on testing and feedback – but not some small number of seats. And we mention this at our website.

    It is rather interesting that in your first post, and even in this post (at first), you indicated that it was a colleague of yours who had bought our Knee Defender.

    But then at the end of this post of yours, in point #5, you wrote: “I though I would give it a try, my loss.”

    So on the one hand it was a colleague of yours who had trouble with our product, while on the other hand, you were who thought you’d “give it a try”. Odd.

  • johnb78

    While it’s not especially fun to share a flight with a drunk person, in these days of locked cockpit doors (so they’re no danger) and security hysteria (so they may be perceived as one anyway), anyone who complains about a drunkard to the extent that they risk actually having the flight diverted is being almost as antisocial as the drunkard. Shut up, bear it, don’t end up making your fellow passengers who are shutting up and bearing it have to end up several hours late home after an impromptu stopover in Albuquerque .

  • http://elliott.org Christopher Elliott

    Oddly enough (and this didn’t make it into the final story) there was a fellow passenger who claimed to work for Apple sitting two seats away from me. He told me that I had better put the computer away, because the way the seat reclined, it would crack the screen. So I defer to his expertise.

  • Ed Boston

    I’m sorry, but this human doesn’t stand to sit. You’re wanting someone to unfasten their seat belt, struggle to stand up and turn around in an area that is too small to sit in as is, just to see if there is room to use a function of the seat? Yeah. Right.