Can breast-feeding activists have it both ways on a plane?

One of the hot discussions this summer centered around the rights of mothers to nurse their babies on a plane.

Breast-feeding advocates weighed in on the issue in the comments section, and in passionate emails to yours truly, insisting there ought to be no discussion at all. Lactating passengers, they proclaimed, should be able to feed their babies wherever and whenever they wanted — even in flight.

Talk of covering up and modesty belonged in a previous century, thanks very much. As one “lactivist” asked in a strongly-worded comment, “Would you rather eat in the toilet, or with a blanket over your head?”

Most of the men who joined the discussion (and there were a few) seemed constrained and a little uncomfortable saying anything beyond that they supported a mother’s right to feed her child and that it might be nice for her to do so in private, in consideration of other passengers.

They did not dare challenge what some commenters referred to as the “breastapo.”

But one brave man did ask a question that deserves to be answered, both by the breast-feeders and by air travelers in general.

“In this age of pervasive camera phones, where virtually everything is captured digitally, would a passenger who photographed a woman not being discreet while breast-feeding on a flight be guilty of violating her privacy — or is taking her image fair game?” asked Dave Mack.

I’m not going to mention where Mack lives or what he does for a living, because I don’t want him to be the victim of a “nurse-in” for asking such a politically incorrect question.

But still — can a breastfeeding mom expose herself on a plane and, at the same time, have the right to not be photographed?

I put that question to the leading expert on photography rights, Carlos Miller. He runs a blog called Photography is Not a Crime.

A commercial aircraft is considered private property, he says. An airline has the right to create its own policy regarding photography, “but the policy should be stated upon take-off or on the ticket or in its in-flight magazine,” he says.

Miller says no domestic airline has a policy expressly forbidding photography on its planes.

“So if a woman chooses to breast-feed while sitting on a plane, she really doesn’t have a legal argument that she has the right to breastfeed without being photographed,” he says.

As a practical matter and as a professional photographer, Miller says he wouldn’t snap photographs of a nursing mom without first asking for permission. But he wouldn’t be required to, and any passenger with a camera phone could conceivably take a shot of a woman’s exposed breast if they wanted to, and without any legal repercussions.

By the way, taking photos on planes is a serious topic and deserves more attention than it’s received. Back in 2008, I wrote about Marilyn Parver, a passenger on a JetBlue flight who taped an altercation between the flight crew and a traveler, and was then asked by a flight attendant to delete the footage, but refused.

I think most passengers are supportive of a woman’s right to feed her baby anywhere, including on an aircraft. A vast majority of air travelers believe that it should be done discreetly. To not cover up is just bad table manners, kind of like (though not the same as) chewing with your mouth open or not using a fork.

One of the most surprising comments I got about breast-feeding passengers came from a female traveler who doesn’t have kids. She says the lactivists are misguided in their efforts to normalize the act of exposing themselves in-flight and in public.

“I fully support a woman’s right to breast-feed so long as she covers her breast in respect of other travelers’ sensibilities,” she told me.

She asked me to not mention her name. That whole nurse-in thing, again.

“Personally, I wouldn’t want to expose my breasts to strangers and really can’t understand what drives that urge,” she adds. “Where do you draw the line? Should women athletes be allowed to strip to their bras, or even bare breasts, if they become overheated? Why should only lactating females be afforded that freedom?”

Good point. If lactating women don’t cover up, then what’s to stop other women from taking off their shirts on a flight? Or anywhere?

I think this is one of those times when you can’t have it both ways. Nursing women cover up not only for their own privacy, but also out of respect for other passengers, a majority of whom would prefer not to see their lactating breasts on a plane. In order to undo that social standard, you would have to erase the entire 19th century, something that’s above this consumer advocate’s pay grade.

Sure, it’s a hassle to put your baby under a blanket. But I’d hate to be the flight attendant that has to get between a teen-age shutterbug and a lactating lawyer who believes her privacy has been violated.

That’s a dispute no one would want to mediate.

  • Mindy Brocker

    This column reminded me of a friends mobile pic from a trip a year or so back. Yes folks, your photo can be taken. Hahahahahaha!!! I only *wish* this was a breastfeeding mom.

    As to the topic on hand, I was a nursing mom who did not use a blanket. My boys were summer babies and it was SO HOT to cover them. That said, I was very discreet and one would have to try very hard to have seen more than a momentary flash of skin.

    That said, when I did nurse in public, I understood it was possible that someone would take my photo. There are surveillance cameras, cell phone cameras … everywhere. It can happen and it’s a risk I was willing to take.

  • SThana

    How about the right to urinate in public or defecate in public? Aren’t those also ‘natural’ acts and should be able to be performed in pblic?

  • TonyA_says

    So why does goggle (who can afford the best lawyers on earth) blur faces of people and plate numbers in their street view?
    I guess they didn’t take the word of Carlos Miller.

  • TonyA_says

    Hey Carver, is an airline seat a public place? Isn’t it a private place which the passengers paid for? Did the airlines give anyone the permission to take pictures inside the airplane? Did they disclose to breast-feeding passengers that fellow passengers will or can take pictures of their breasts? Does anyone have any right to privacy inside an airplane?

  • TonyA_says

    Of course not. You may not upskirt or downblouse in a mall (a place of public accommodation). Try it and see how fast security will haul your *** off to the station if you are caught.

    18 USC § 1801

    (5) the term “under circumstances in which that individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy” means—
    (A) circumstances in which a reasonable person would believe that he or she could disrobe in privacy, without being concerned that an image of a private area of the individual was being captured; or
    (B) circumstances in which a reasonable person would believe that a private area of the individual would not be visible to the public, regardless of whether that person is in a public or private place.

  • LeeAnneClark

    I can’t “like” this post enough! I wish I could say that it’s renewed my faith in the basic decency of the human race…but after reading all these other comments in here, it hasn’t.

    I have to say I particularly LOVED this line: “You’ve taken the sacrifice that women make to their own modesty as being exhibitionism.”

    YES! Thank you for articulating the point I’ve been trying to make so much better than I could! Why anyone thinks that breastfeeding women WANT to expose their breasts for pure titillation is just unfathomable. Did it REALLY not occur to these people that they are doing it for one reason, and one reason alone: to feed their child?

  • LeeAnneClark

    Wow, why are all of the intelligent, decent, reasonable people only showing up NOW?

    Once again here’s a post that I wish I could “like” 10,000 times. I couldn’t agree more…with every single word (including about Raven’s seat mate being a rude attention-ho!)

  • Joe_D_Messina

    But looking at someone (or photographing them) doesn’t deprive them of liberty and privacy has never extended to the right not to be seen in a public place.

    That being said, though, the photography tangent is pretty far off the main topic, imo. I think it basically came up as a response to the argument that breastfeeding is like eating a sandwich and is so mundane no reasonable person could ever be bothered by it. (As an aside, I’ve seen some slobs who can’t eat a sandwich without grossing out the people around them.) I think the vast majority view it as natural and normal but also somewhat unusual in public and, thus, prone to catching people’s attention and making some uncomfortable. When both sides are cognizant of both those realities, things tend to go just fine for everyone. Most of the problems come when somebody is bound and determined to make a point of it, and that can come from either side.

  • Joe_D_Messina

    You pay for a seat at a concert or a football game, as well. “Public” doesn’t strictly mean “publicly-owned.” During Mardi Gras one partier is on the public sidewalk, while the guy right next to him is in a private doorway and the people right above are on a private balcony. They’re all still in public.

  • jebaker

    part of the problem is that the passenger next to you is 1″ away from you and therefore privacy is nearly impossible to maintain. While I would object to a child half in my lap, I have no issue with a woman discreetly nursing a baby. It’s possible even without a blanket over a baby’s head. There are some exhibitionists out there, tho! I ate at a restaurant recently and a woman took a table in the front window and very publically whipped out a breast. She could not have been less discreet.

  • http://www.facebook.com/CarverFarrow Carver Clark Farrow

    Good questions. We have to get a little more technical. Terms of art like public and private have different meaning depending on the circumstances and with respect to who is asserting the right. For example, the inside of an airplane, much like a restaurant, is private from the perspective of the owner. Thus the owner can assign seats, make up rules, refuse service, exclude persons, etc.

    However, with respect to the traveling public, the inside is a public space as far as privacy is concerned. Whatever you do on an airplane can be viewed by complete strangers. Much like what you do in a restaurant. Any member of the public with the price of air fare generally has unfettered access. Further, the major activity that occurs on an airplane, i.e. sitting, is not one that is of a personal nature.

    The quintessential places where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy would include your home, a hotel room, a bathroom, a locker room, etc.

    With regards to disclosure, since there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, further disclosure by the owner is unnecessary.

  • http://www.facebook.com/CarverFarrow Carver Clark Farrow

    That’s actually easy. As self-important as we lawyers tend to think we are, the sun doesn’t rise and set with our every utterance. Google was getting extremely bad press with its street view. Google cars have been attacked by people upset at the privacy implications. This was a business/PR decision, not necessarily a legal decision.

    On the legal side, the best lawsuit is the one you avoid being a defendant in, even if you will ultimately prevail. The time,money, and distraction from your core business may be a sufficient reason for Google to blur the faces,particularly as faces aren’t relevant to street view

  • http://www.facebook.com/CarverFarrow Carver Clark Farrow

    Your cited legal authority is not on point. Having the right to do something has no bearing on whether you have a right to privacy when doing it. Alas, this is about what is legal, not what is right

  • http://www.facebook.com/steve.larson.965 Steve Larson

    Again, you’re taking an extreme view on this, similar to the extreme view of the opposing side (your “Beavis & Buttheads”) that seems to bother you so much. A woman has the RIGHT to breastfeed in public and make no attempt to cover up. COMMON DECENCY would suggest trying to be as discreet as possible to consider the feelings of those around her who may not be comfortable with it (you can argue they should be comfortable but that doesn’t change the fact that many people aren’t). Others have the RIGHT to take photos of acts in public, whether it’s breastfeeding, making out, or eating a sandwich. COMMON DECENCY suggests that taking photos of anyone without their consent is wrong.
    You say “you do not have a right to enforce your desire not to see things on others who are doing things that are perfectly legal.” But likewise you don’t have the right to enforce your desire not to have someone snap photos of anything in a public area. But again just because you have the right to do something doesn’t make it the decent thing to do and that does both ways. I would include fat women (or men) wearing spandex in that category as well. :)

  • TonyA_says

    Yeah given that women only got the right to vote in 1920 after the Nineteenth Ammendent passed, and the right to an abortion after 1973 in all 50 States when the US Supreme Court ruled in Roe v. Wade; then they (similarly situated females, breastfeeders) still have to wait decades before all States give them the right to bretfeed their babies anywhere without fear of being harassed, ridiculed, or even arrested.

  • TonyA_says

    Joe, what legitimate, social, or morale purpose could there be for anyone without the express consent of the woman take pictures of her breast while breastfeeding? Are these men secret pro-lactivists making private movie collections? Or are we gonna see these in Youtube?

  • http://flyicarusfly.com/ Fly, Icarus, Fly

    If you were that Spandex-wearing obese person’s friend, wouldn’t you say, “you may want to rethink that look?” Personally I think women should be able to BF in public. But in the same vein, they are exposing a body part that is normally covered, so they shouldn’t be offended if some people stare or have a reaction of some kind. It’s not so much the nature of the act as it is the incongruity of seeing it done publicly.

  • Daniel Weaver

    Like I said, I think it should be fine for moms to breastfeed in public; my ‘flaunt’ description is squarely aimed at nurse-ins and other acts deliberately designed to attract attention. The focus should be on feeding her child as you say, not purposely attracting attention to her right to breastfeed. There have been numurous comments on this article that many women are able to breastfeed very discreetly perhaps even without specifically ‘covering up’; this is what I am saying should happen. Any method of feeding which is expected to attract extra attention is no longer solely focused on feeding her child; in which case I think ‘fluant’ is an accurate description.

  • Jeanne_in_NE

    What happened to your 10 foot pole? :)

  • TonyA_says

    It’s bizarre how the same folks that complain about intrusion when the TSA touches or takes pictures (x-ray or whatever) of their breasts, vagina or testicles complain so loudly but will not complain if a fellow passenger takes a picture of a mother’s breast providing nutrition to her baby while seated on an airplane.
    It’s the same right to privacy being violated.

  • http://www.facebook.com/CarverFarrow Carver Clark Farrow

    Alas, while in public doesn’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy and in public you can be photographed

  • BostonKiwi

    Actually, for what it is worth, I don’t get stressed about people taking photos around my kids. I took them apple picking on Monday and there were crowds of families, especially around the play area and the farm animals. I took a bunch of photos of my 3 year old and his buddy have a great day out together. There are dozens of other kids in the background of those photos and even one where a kid ran in front of mine just as I was snapping the photo.

    Now I can understand your concern about predators, but I think you are getting too extreme here. If my kids are in public, I cannot expect that if someone is really determined they can’t take photos of them. Heck, they can even do that when we are not in a public place. Just ask Kate Middleton.

    But there are two separate issues here. I have 2 kids and my wife breast fed one of them until he turned one. The other one had latching problems so my wife, bless her, pumped for a year to give him breast milk. She breast fed on occasion in public, but only when there were no alternatives. And no, she wasn’t going to sit in a bathroom to do it. And she also wasn’t going to cover herself and our baby under a blanket. I think the reasonably minded folks can accept that a mother can actually breastfeed without flashing much of anything to anyone. It doesn’t seem to be that hard.

    But back to the photo issue. I think you need to step back and see Chris’ point for what it was. Can a person on one hand expect to perform an act in a public setting (no matter if it be breastfeeding or playing with their kids or) and on the other hand be afforded absolute privacy. As Chris implies, you can’t have both. By running away on the extreme possibility of some guy randomly snapping a photo of your exposed nipple in the fraction of a second either starting or finishing feeding you are missing the greater point.

  • http://www.facebook.com/judyserie.nagy Judy Serie Nagy

    In my childless opinion, flaunting your boob out in public to feed your baby is just like all the tattoos, piercings and purple hair we see everywhere. These people want attention. If the baby is hungry, feed it. Certainly a mother can figure out a way to feed the baby without making a spectacle of the process, I don’t think it requires a blanket over the poor baby’s face, does it?

  • technomage1

    @Chasmosaur: You have hit the nail right on the head here. “For breast feeding activists, there is no argument that can win”. It seems they want to have their cake and eat it, too on this issue. They want to openly do things in public yet have privacy, which isn’t a reasonable expectation for anyone. In their eyes, if a man so much as glances in their direction, he’s a pervert.

    If I saw a guy trying to snap a pic of a woman trying to be a discreet as possible, I’m going to have some words for him. But if she’s stripped to the waist – and it does happen – hey, she is showing she doesn’t care so why should I?

  • http://flyicarusfly.com/ Fly, Icarus, Fly

    You noticed, huh? Tried to stay out of it for as long as I could!

  • mszabo

    That is what I would have thought until I read the following article:
    http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/local_wane_ftwayne_Man_accused_of_taking_upskirt_pictures_200909160012

    This seems to imply even though he was caught redhanded they still couldn’t enforce any privacy/voyeurism violation law. If THIS won’t get you arrested, then certainly taking photos of a woman publically breastfeeding won’t. I’m not trying to debate what is morally right/wrong here but rather what is legal. Seems like unfortunately this behavior is legal.

  • JenniferFinger

    But the moderators are probably all concentrated in the few time zones in the US. I don’t think there are any in the EU.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lisa.riffe Lisa Riffe

    I always used a blanket or my (loose) shirt. I’m stating my opinion here, which may or may not jive with anyone else’s opinion. That’s why America is so great, right???

  • Kevin Mathews

    It’s actually very easy. My wife did it with both of our kids. First one was on the boob for 11 months, second one for close to 18. They do make light weight covers, literally call Hooter Hiders, that work great for keeping the girls hidden without making the baby uncomfortable.
    Personally, I see no issues with showing boob in public. But, given the stick up the ass society we live in that has serious issues with nudity in public, people simply need to adjust a little bit.
    Ever heard the expression, “Pick Your Battles”. Over-Exposing yourself in public is not a battle the breastfeeding community should pick. Be content that there are laws in place that allow you to do it anywhere, but also be mindful of the fact that unless you cover up, you are putting yourself out there in public…

  • ChBot

    Chris should move back to Europe to cover that time zone :-)

  • Scott

    If I remember correctly, Chris did put out a call for mods, so if you are based in the EU and wish to help out, contact the man! :)

  • ralphie

    I agree with most of what you said. But some woman ARE exposing themselves deliberately when they breastfeed, and perhaps that may be considered provocative. Some would have us believe that no one can place any restraints on how a woman chooses to breastfeed; whatever she chooses is what we all have to accept. No, we don’t. And yes, we can impose restraints, especially if some women refuse to restrain themselves. If you want to brazenly and openly and inconsiderately expose yourself, then you may be subject to someone inconsiderately taking photos. Decent to take those photos? probably not. But neither is it decent to expose yourself.