Should airlines honor low fares that are obvious mistakes?

Royce Smith planned to visit Sydney during spring break to attend an arts festival and work on a book, when he found an unbelievably good fare on American Airlines’ Web site: A round-trip ticket from Wichita to Sydney for just $1,198.

In first class.

“I jumped on the deal,” said Smith, an assistant art professor at Wichita State University. “I entered credit card details and double-checked American’s booking code to ensure that first class was indeed what I was purchasing. Everything indicated a confirmed seat in first class.”

He shouldn’t have believed it.

Four days later, an American Airlines representative phoned Smith with some bad news: The fare was a mistake. He could either pay the difference between the real first-class fare and what he’d paid — $11,000 — or get bumped down to economy class at no extra charge. The airline also offered a $200 transportation voucher for his trouble.

“Can an airline step out of such an error so freely when it holds its passengers to such rigid rules regarding cancellations, overweight baggage, and late arrival to the airport?” he asked.

The airline believes it can.

“We fully believe customers should have recognized the fare that was very briefly offered as being an obvious error that is simply too good to be true versus the normal price of approximately $20,000 round trip for a first-class fare from the U.S. to Australia,” said Tim Smith, a spokesman for American. “Your customer admits that he thought it was an excellent, even fantastic price, even for first class, so that should have drawn some suspicion on his part. Apparently it did not.”

But this is not a story about whether a travel company should honor an erroneous price. I’ve already written that article, and I have the burn marks to prove it. Instead, I wondered whether there was anything a passenger like Smith might have done to spot this fare error before he began to entertain thoughts of crossing the Pacific in style.

I looked up the fare from Wichita to Sydney, and Royce Smith’s fare was low, even by economy-class standards. American believes that the too-good-to-be-true litmus test must be applied to all fares, which is something I’ve heard from other companies caught in a price-error quandary.

That would make sense — if travel prices made sense. But they don’t. When carriers such as Spirit Airlines sell tickets for $1, a reasonable traveler may conclude that a $1,198 fare to Australia is not so unreasonable.

Is there a better way to know? Maybe. Mark Mannell, who follows pricing errors in the car rental industry as the chief executive of CarRentalSavers.com, says that he turns to the Internet to determine whether a deal is legit. “The best source for me are the travel and discount forums,” he said.

Among them are sites such as Slick Deals and Fat Wallet, where bargains are often vetted by users or editors. He also frequents such travel-specific sites as TripAdvisor and Flyertalk, a popular discussion board for business travelers.

But these Web sites are a mixed blessing, at least in my experience.

Although they can identify honest-to-goodness sales, they’re sometimes also breeding grounds for malcontents. I’ve run across travelers who feel that a company should honor any fare error, no matter how outrageous, and who don’t think twice about booking blocks of rooms or several tickets at a wrong price.

Not only do I find that ethically problematic, but it also makes matters more difficult for passengers like Smith, who only buy one ticket. A travel company with a bona fide fare slip-up is far less likely to make good on its mistake when it believes that customers are trying to take advantage of it.

Put differently, don’t believe everything you read on the forums. And don’t be too quick to join other participants in an e-mail campaign to persuade a company to honor an erroneous fare or rate. You may not be in the best company.

In the end, the one tool that you can truly rely on is your own common sense. If your gut tells you that there’s something wrong with a price, chances are there is. Sadly, common sense is in short supply on some online forums, where travelers devour every deal faster than a cloud of hungry locusts descending on a hapless farmer’s crops.

One more thing: When pricing errors happen, there are no winners.

Smith, for his part, is rethinking his loyalty to American Airlines.

“As a professor, I traveled over 200,000 miles with American last year, took students on three international trips on American, and had planned to use American for future travel needs,” he told me. “If they are making these decisions from a purely economic point of view, it would seem that they are threatening a much larger pool of current and future income than by simply admitting their mistake and letting me fly in the cabin I booked.”

  • MVFlyer

    One other thing should be brought up here–the majors have very extensive computer systems with complex algorithms to govern fares. You’d think the programmers would be smart enough to put in error traps or approvals before a seemingly ridiculous fare gets posted. It would be very easy to put in a trap that captures a 1st class fare <$10K from the US to Australia for example.

    And Christopher–I see your point regarding the 'fat finger' fares–mistakes are sometimes made. I know that many ads, for example, offer disclaimers for misprints and the like. No transactions are actually performed. But there is a fundamental difference here: the commerce site actually accepts payment and hits up your credit card. So the question is: does the airline have the right to void your purchase after the fact? I usually go by the adage: "they're dumb enough to offer it, I'm dumb enough to take it".

    If the airlines can void purchases after the fact, I could foresee a whole new revenue stream for them: your $250 fare from SFO-PHL isn't high enough now that fares have gone up; we'll void it and charge you $400. (Maybe I shouldn't be giving them any ideas!)

  • Joe Farrell

    $1200 for a ticket is not an unreasonable number – its not like charging $25 instead of $250 for a ticket that seems crazy. I think that in THIS case the guy has a reasonable claim to seek booking in the cabin he purchased. $1200 for a F class from the west coast to SYD is crazy low, but = well – not ‘crazy’ when they are offering $600 RT tickets in coach.

    If I were QA I would have offered him a seat in business class. . .. C is full of upgrading frequent fliers anyway . . .

  • David Meeks

    Royce, It’s unfortunate you weren’t able to take advantage of such a low fare. It’s also unfortunate that some people, for their own sake, would come off pressumsuous and condescending about your problem. That’s what forums are for, however. The internet is still a new and dangerous entity. Many dangers abound from illegal soliciting, identity theft, hacking sites and sensitive information, scams and gimmicks, not to mention the dirtier side of porn/child porn. While I know none of these apply to the article, a certain amount of common sense is warranted. And although you may have had faith with the carrier and the site, a general dubiousness or anxiety about everything presented and the subsequent validity of a particular deal is needed. I believe this is what some fellow bloggers were trying to impart. I did not read but half the contents, but I saw no one truely out of line. That can be said of the airlines as well. From my expirience of purchases online, they are mostly conditional sales to be scrutinized and finalized by a data entry clerk or representative of the company. I’m quite sure each and every day there are hundreds of mistakes or omisions across the internet. Usually a company says as much in a disclaimer or makes you agree to certain terms of use that encompasses most any loop hole a consumer could use against it. Let me know if you feel I am somehow bias against you or if you agree. Just because some a-hole or two says some derogatory words doesn’t necessary mean that they are. Sometimes it just means they aren’t very nice people, are too unpleasantly opionated, and are lucky they are able to say what they say from a computer. If it weren’t so, then I imagine there would be some swelling involved with a paricular appendage in the facial region. Peace be with you all.

  • David Meeks

    Was that an oxymoron or what? LOL I wasn’t advocating anything. Just saying sometimes we all need a buffer for our major conditions/malfunctions

  • Justin

    @ Chris,

    I respectfully disagree. A seat or product is ONLY worth what the market is willing to pay. That 20,000 Dollar seat is worth NOTHING if it goes unfilled during the flight. It serves as a Negative or net loss since the airline STILL has to take all travelers to the same spot, even if those First Class ones are empty and 2 people are on the flight. Hence, they should have honored his ticket. 1200 dollars is FAR FROM an “Obvious” Fat Finger.

    In 2005 before everything hit the fan (Not like things were great then though), my mom paid 1800 TOTAL to fly to Tanzania. Fares were as low as 1600. Granted, that was standard fare BUT here we are in DIRE ECONOMIC Straits and people are cutting deals left and right to Woo the travelers who do have money. To me, if I saw 1200 Dollars, I wouldn’t question it.

    As Math Goes 1200 dollars that would have filled the sit = Better than the 0 they got if it went empty.

    P.S. To anyone who said that making the exception would devalue future sales, is wrong. American would not be offering that price to others in the future.

  • Steve

    While I think it’s a ridiculous premise that a traveler should have to do extensive research on fares to determine if an offer is for real or not, I think that despite the dollar amount of the fare it’s pretty obvious this was a mistake. I’ve never flown first class but recently priced first class tickets for our upcoming honeymoon just out of curiosity; $1k was about the starting rate for anything in first class on a relatively short domestic flight.

    It’s not totally clear to me from the article, but it sounds like American accidentally showed the economy class price for the first class ticket and wants to give this traveler the economy class ticket plus a $200 travel voucher for the hassle. That’s not too bad, IMHO. (Now, if economy class tickets are actually available for less than $1,198 on this flight, then I don’t think that would be reasonable at all).

  • JS

    Carver wrote:

    “Making arguments based on contract law is useless because the contract necessarily incorporated the conditions of carriage which has tons of loopholes.”

    Not quite. If you don’t like the contract offered by a company, then don’t do business with them. Companies will fail if enough people don’t buy their products.

    On the other hand, if you agree to abide by their contract, then their contract is generally valid, especially if it is disclosed beforehand. I’m not talking about Spirit Airlines, which seems to have undisclosed extra fees tacked on everywhere, but with AA, their legal disclosure is a few clicks away from their main web page, and it’s clear: they can change the contract if they want to.

    So if you don’t like that aspect of the contract, then don’t buy their tickets. I once declined to invest money into an investment account because, upon reading the fine print on the back of the contract, that contract said that the terms and conditions were subject to change without notice! I don’t want to leave my investment money with a company that would possibly change anything without notice, so I didn’t do business with them.

    If someone fails to read the contract, however, as I said earlier, then that person is taking a risk. In Prof. Smith’s case, he just didn’t get the first class treatment. Sure it would have been nice, and AA kinda dropped the ball here, but this is within AA’s discretion.

    Sometimes airlines go bankrupt and go out of business forever. Remember, we consumers hold the power! It might seem like their contracts are unfair, but if we don’t like them, we can shop elsewhere. That’s the beauty of our capitalist system, which rewards good competition.

  • RavinMgmt

    I think John has an excellent point. This day in age, as a customer, we don’t know who, behind the scenes, is losing money or being punished for a keystroke mistake. But, I don’t understand why the burden to cover for that mistake falls to the customer. In my line of work if 500 bookings got through with a deeply discounted erroneous rate, then that’s a failure of internal audits and management, NOT the customer’s fault. I know that the word audit conjures up a big long drawn out process with lots of reports, but with the software that exists today it’s a simple command or two that’s entered into the system. The airlines should work on a system like that instead of punishing a customer for finding out about their mistake. And you have to ask the question where does it end? What if the rate was wrong by $1000, $500, $200, $100, $20? Airlines charge me $2.00 for a pair of disposable headphones, why not call me if one of their revenue managers messed up by $100 and 500 bookings got through. And, how would I know they screwed up before a phone call from them after booking? The argument of bait and switch also comes into play. If, playing by an airlines rules, I really wanted to sell hotel rooms for a particular night, why don’t I just “erroneously” key in $50, then call everyone who books it and say, “whoops, my bad, I meant to put a 1 in front of that 5-0″. I mean it just doesn’t fly.

  • y_p_w

    I’m thinking that Wichita to Sydney might not be a terribly common flight arrangement and very few people actually looked it up unless it circulated on various forums before AA changed it.

    I remember some years back when United had a decimal point error for San Francisco to Paris. My recollection is that for maybe 4-5 AM they entered it as $24.95 round trip when it should have been $2495. Then the word got circulated around and several hundred of these “special” fares were booked before United changed it. I heard they honored the fare although I suppose it was all on flights operated by United.

    I’ve even taken advantage of some fares that seemed to be too good to be true. I flew for less than $55 round trip to Southern California once, and it wasn’t something like Southwest’s $30 one-way within California special in 2001. I checked off the early morning flight as my starting point. Any other flight that same day bumped it up to over $150. I don’t know if it was an error, although I suspect it wasn’t.

  • Joe Farrell

    I’ve always wondered – if the airlines need to charge bargain basement prices to get people to fly on the 530am flight to anywhere – then why have a 530am flight? I can understand that it only takes 4 business people paying full boat coach airfares to make the flight profitable – but – if demand is such that there is no reason to fly at that hour – then why have the flight?

  • John

    Justin:

    You’re completely wrong and you obviously have no understanding about fundamental business or pricing strategy. If you’re saying that the $1,200 fare should be honored only because the seat might have gone unfilled otherwise, then you need to re-think how you think.

    The reason that your logic is so flawed is because there are some people that would be willing to pay $20k for this seat, while there are others who would pay $1k max. If a seat were to go out empty and the airline absolutely 100% could differentiate between those that will pay $20k and those that will only pay $1k, then you might be correct. But they can’t make this differentiation. That’s why they set a price which MAXIMIZES OVERALL REVENUE.

    If there are 8 first class seats available and they sell 2 of them for $20k, then they make $40k in revenue. If they sell them for $1k and all 8 seats get bought, then they make $8k in revenue. So it doesn’t matter that 6 seats go out empty because they still make more money that way. If the airlines did what you’re suggesting, then you would have the “high type” passengers that are willing to pay $20k mimicking the “low type” passengers that will only pay $1k, which would result in a huge net loss for the airline.

  • S

    I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assumption for this guy to have made. I bought legit biz-class C fares on United from AUS – NRT last October for $1500 per person. That was a valid fare.

    AA should be on the hook for that ticket. I would have thought “that’s a good deal” but also “it’s a good deal because none of these airlines are having any luck unloading their premium class seats, so it’s a huge sale!”

  • y_p_w

    I can’t figure why early flights are there either. I will say for my trip I talked to another passenger who noted that he paid over $200 round trip for the same flight. By the time I booked it, the number of available coach seats was down to less than 10. There’s just so much weirdness going on with airline fares that I won’t pretend to understand.

    I suppose some early morning and late evening flights exist because airlines need to have a certain inventory of aircraft available at specific airports for more profitable flights later.

  • Carver

    @Valentine

    Your rant is quite prolific if lacking in meaning.

    If you read my post carefully instead of having histronics, you would have understood my Best Buy analogy. The $890/$89 television set transaction is complete upon purchase. Thus, if you actually get past the cash register, you are home free. Both sides have performed the contract. You paid for the tv, Best Buy gave you the tv. Transaction completed.

    In travel, however, the transaction is not complete until you’ve actually flown, checked-in at the hotel, taken possession of the rental car, etc. If you book an special rate, e.g. government rate at a hotel and don’t produce ID, the counter will merrily charge you a higher rate. In the airline case, the call came before the professor had flown or suffered any detriment that has been reported here.

    Further, I stated a truism. In 21 years of flying with American, I have never seen a 90 percent reduction in price in the premium cabin. I did not state that no one has ever gotten one. The good professor obviously just did. However, in his case, it was an error. Perhaps in your case it was as well. I do not know, I cannot speak for your circumstances, but I can speak for my substantial experiences and draw conclusions just as you are doing

    The ethical question here is painfully simple. If you know, or strongly believe, that a price is an error, then is it ethically right to take advantage of that price? I say no. You may disagree and that is your right.

    @RoyceSmith

    The reason why I am declining to discuss American’s other unethical behavior is because it is not relevant to anything here. It is deflecting from the issue of your ticket.

    There are two ethical possibilities. 1) A customer believes that American intended to offer the fare that they did, in which case booking presents no ethical issues. or 2) the customer believed that the fare was an accident, and books it anyway. I submit that would be unethical.

  • Carver

    @Joe

    My guess is that it’s for plane repositioning. I used to take a 5:30am flight from San Jose to Los Angeles years ago. There were more commuter flights then. The last plane would arrive in San Jose at about 9ish or 10ish the night before, but couldn’t fly out again because of city rules. So it would leave really early to get to LAX in time for the business travelers. This was before the regional jets become popular.

    And yeah, the flight was always dirt cheap. Of course, trying to check into a hotel at 7:30am wasn’t always the easiest thing to do.

  • roycesmith

    Hmmm, so by the logic of mathematics, multiple the number of times I fly per year on American, plus the number of international trips I have my students, times the number of years I will be taking students on these trips (i.e. quite a few), and American’s decision may make sense to its bizarrely behaving Customer Relations team in the SHORT-TERM; it’s incredibly damaging to image and future business in the long term. I always saw it (back when it was joyful to take my students on American) as grooming a new generation of explorers and flyers–encouraging them to see the world and showing them that there was a company out there who would do it reliably and that could be trusted. That had been my experience up to this point. It is the lack of trust to me–the threat that ANY fare could be pulled (or any TV confiscated in the proverbial WalMart parking lot), that it was I that is the party to blame, that ended up showing me that AA was more interested in face-saving than preserving a business relationship. A few observations:

    1….I would love to see what AA actually pays for its code-share first-class seat each way from LAX to SYD…They sure wouldn’t lose anything by keeping me in first to LAX, so how much are they REALLY losing here? These airlines are COZY; their flight attendants and employees fly in First regularly for ridiculously low prices…What is the “wholesale” cost of this seat when the two companies’ managements are talking?

    2…Wrona’s point about calling to check on a fare may be what some do, but it isn’t how ANY member of the public is asked to think about flying. I like RavinMgmt’s point about how Priceline (and others) are ALL about celebrating the ridiculously low room at the five-star hotel as a win for everyone. That is how the flying public has been coached into looking at travel, and it is NOT out of the question to think that wildly promotional fares are legit. In the Pacific, Air NZ is GREAT at drumming up business by doing quirky, fantastic sales….Pacific Blue and Virgin Blue do 50-cent fares which is the internet equivalent of the Harrod’s stampede….And, yes, American DOES do wildly competitive and better-than-competitive sales–usually in cities where they have quite a bit of competition (a good example was a fare I found once from Wichita to Sacramento….price? $880 ROUND-TRIP…!!!!; I drove two hours down to Oklahoma City and the same itinerary, only leaving out of OKC was $188 round trip)…largely thanks to SW’s presence there. American’s codeshare, QF, and UA now face stiffer competition with V-Australia and Delta entering the scene…So you are telling me such a sale is not the least bit credible–even if to keep the flying public’s eyes on AA and QF?

    3….Wrona, I actually don’t use Expedia and Travelocity…To me they are more like middlemen than advocates, which is why I have ALWAYS used AA.com for bookings. There was nothing in the booking process that indicated anything was abnormal…the fare was even labeled on the “Price & Schedule” table page of the website as a hot-pink “FIRST SPECIAL.” What on earth indicates alarm bells here? It was self-described by the airline as a special!

    4….While Chris has offered a brief point in this discussion, I am still unclear why it seems like he has abandoned this issue….I have been told that this really is only going to be resolved by a court or by the US Dept. of Transportation. Really?!? Is that what I now have to do in an era of investigative journalism that is supposed to be the visible counterbalance to a company running roughshod over customers when it can’t agree to live by its own culture of rigid expectation, penalty, and price-gouging?

    I am sure that there is a paper-pusher with a deluxe adding machine that has computed the probabilities that customers will stay or leave with given responses that AA might or might not make…I am sure at the end of the day, their position is totally economic in nature…And my response, thus far, has probably been more emotional (which of course means NOTHING to a customer relations employee at American). What I am working on now is the transition between an emotional response and a legal one. I see how others are treated at the airport when a sick child made them miss a plane and an agent callously tells them to buy new tickets. I have seen entire suitcases strewn on the floor as customers despertaely try to repack for the sake of TWO POUNDS. This is, in essence, an issue of principle and one of trust. I paid for a ticket in First and that is what I should get. Tim Smith, AA’s megahorn for the media, said the number of people who actually booked this was in the “low three figure region”…so 250? 100? And THIS is going to break American’s back? Hardly. It is just another issue of how short-sighted legacy carriers often are in their ill treatment of the people who support them the most.

  • roycesmith

    y_p_w: I didn’t check anything other than AA.com….The fare was valid from any AA-served city in the USA, with connection in LAX. So, someone from Kansas City, or Oklahoma City, or Austin could have ended up with the same fare.

  • roycesmith

    Carver: But you said my actions were unethical, because, by your logic, I booked what I thought was an accidental fare. I stand by the point I have always made, which is that I did not think it accidental, I thought it FANTASTIC. I have flown for quite a few years as a Platinum and Executive Platinum, and there was absolutely no reason to think it an error in the competitive world we live in. Sorry.

  • Christopher Elliott

    @roycesmith I thought our email correspondence was private, but since you referred to it in your previous answer, I will elaborate. I’ve corresponded with American about your case. I know when they are going to play ball, and not. They dug their heels in on your case — probably because you contacted the media. I think that’s a fine strategy, but when everyone’s looking, travel companies often become unyielding. Only the DOT or a court will make them change their tune.

    Another thing that significantly weakened your case was the fact that AA wasn’t denying you carriage. It was just denying you a first-class seat.

  • roycesmith

    Chris….I didn’t realize that our discussion was private, so my apologies. You are saying that they didn’t deny me carriage? They effectively HAVE denied me carriage when they cancelled my tickets without my authorization. They charged my credit card and they cancelled when they specifically told me they would not do so–instead waiting to see my written correspondence.

    When I tried to ask for a forum for DIALOGUE, I was SHUT DOWN at every turn…”I want to talk to the Executive Platinum Customer Relations Line.” “We’re sorry – that won’t happen….They have been instructed not to enter into any discussion about this matter.” –”Let me talk to a supervisor in your ‘crisis center’ then…” “No. That is not possible.” They circled their wagons long before my wheels ever started squeaking; to say or imply otherwise is a gross misinterpretation of what has actually happened thus far. I haven’t heard from you regarding the nature of your communication with American, either. The last I knew they had sent you the stock standard press release that they sent anyone inquiring about
    the fare….So there was more communication on top of that?

    I am just curious as to why the advocacy side of this issue is being pressed by many, many posters here, but not so much by you…It’s disappointing…

  • David Z

    But you said my actions were unethical, because, by your logic, I booked what I thought was an accidental fare.

    Methinks Carver was referring to your act of trying to get AA to honor the erroneous fare when you thought it was too good to be true. And as you probably realized later on, he was attacking that rather than your character. :)

  • Mike

    RoyceSmith, I’ll take your side on this one. I really have no idea if that $1200 fare was too good to be true or not. I do know that I get e-mails from US air and Southwest every week advertising some fares that I would consider too good to be true, but apparently they are selling these seats to fill a plane. There is no reason to think that a $1,200 seat would be “too good to be true”. Heck, last January southwest was offering flights from my city to vegas for $50 each way. (three friends actually went) I see these same flights over $500 on other carriers. By the logic presented by others, nobody should have booked because it was just too good to be true.

    Also, the opinion that people should have to go elsewhere and check pricing before they purchase is insane. This is the whole reason behind going directly to the airline selling the seats. How often do we read here how Priceline or Hotwire screwed up. The general opinion is that people should book directly with the companies. So when they do book directly, now they should have looked elsewhere first? That’s crazy. Just because the internet is easy doesn’t mean people should need to spend every waking moment doing research on pricing.

    The airline is wrong here and should have honored the fare and dealt with the programmers(s) internally.

    Carver, I think the more appropriate analogy would be, what if you bought a $2,500 big screen from Best Buy for $400 and scheduled delivery. You make payment and go home expecting the tv to be delivered the next day only to find out that BB is telling you to pony up an additional $1,800 or you get no television. Logic would dictate that you purchased the TV and if they aren’t going to deliver it, then you can either go pick it up, or call the police and accuse them of theft.

  • valentine

    Chris -
    I understand the pernicious nature of “tit for tat” and certainly don’t advocate that. I think I’m more in the category of “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword” or even “hoisted on his own petard.” But I agree with you that their poor choices don’t justify ours.

    Respectfully, I’m not sure if I trust the airlines to not use the “mistake” excuse when convenient. Is there a paper trail when this happens? Too many people upthread have flown repeatedly on blow-out fares that AA’s claim of fat fingers (love that phrase, btw) seems based only on their word.

    Including “S” (above), who wrote: “I bought legit biz-class C fares on United from AUS – NRT last October for $1500 per person.” Is $1200 that far off from $1500? (Is C business or first? I can’t remember. Forgive me if it is business instead.)

    Royce -
    I can’t speak for others but I certainly never spoke in favor of Chris advocating for you further. I think there were ways to go about this that might have been effective that didn’t include the public outrage and vitriol (and now, sense of entitlement) toward AA that you’ve exhibited on a public forum such as this. Not saying you don’t have a point but first rule of trying to get people to do the right thing is give them some cover as they do it. Trumpeting from the internet isn’t it.

    Carver -
    Again, you claim that the transaction is complete only when you’ve flown. I get that you think that because you said that before. Again, I’m asking, what are you basing that on?

    On a similar thread on this site, someone else sites the transaction as irreversible when a ticket number is generated. He also didn’t site his source.

    You wrote: ” In 21 years of flying with American, I have never seen a 90 percent reduction in price in the premium cabin. I did not state that no one has ever gotten one. The good professor obviously just did. However, in his case, it was an error. Perhaps in your case it was as well. I do not know, I cannot speak for your circumstances…” So you think it is possible we got a “mistake” fare every Thanksgiving/Christmas for ten years? Because you assert that that is, at the very least, a possibility. And all the people upthread? They also were possibly ALL mistakes? How convenient for your argument. Yes, yes, I know, you hid behind the pseudo-intellectual trope of “I don’t know…” Anytime someone’s experience is materially different than your little tiny myopic world view, you point out that you can’t “verify” it? Got it. You are one of those.

    I think it might be possible that you are just a really lousy shopper.

    JS: You wrote, “…but this is within AA’s discretion.” Is it? Based on what? I’ve never read anything like this in the contract for carriage, though it is definitely possible I’m not interpreting something appropriately.

  • valentine

    Chris -

    In re-reading one of your posts, I think where we differ is in the word “forgive.” I guess I see that as a very non-corporate word, one used for personal relationships. I’m glad I re-read that post because that is the crux of the problem for me with all of this. In business, to me, you have legal obligations.

    Now I’ve over-thought this so much that I’m trying to figure out if a corporation can be “ethical.” (I mean in the classic philosophical sense. Like dogs can’t be.) I know that corporate policy can be willfully and recklessly harmful to real people, and I know that the actual people that are supposed to execute that corporate policy (or make it up in the first place) are still responsible for their actions within their own morality system (see the nazis’ “we were just following orders” and how much that didn’t fly). I’m just not sure if I agree that AA can have morality.

    And if not, then going down that same road, is the word “forgive” appropriate? I know in business you can “make allowances” for people outside the rules; I know I’ve critically evaluated a business’ poor handling of some situation and decided it wasn’t in my best interests to stamp my little foot or storm off – so bite my tongue and soldier on with them. But those all imply decisions based on self-interest. As business is.

    (It is in my best self-interest to bend over backwards for my customers. It is necessary ethically to not rip them off and honor my word. There is a difference.)

    I “forgive” my husband, but maybe I don’t think of “forgiving” a corporation.

    Would royce’s outrage be so red-lined if he had to discuss this with the actual programmer? (Instead, he has corporate drones spouting the company line…) I’m just wondering how different the reaction would be if it were a person with a face. (Sort of the same premise when people say hideous things on the internet, cloaked in anonymity so now they are vicious or rude.) How different would royce’s reaction be if he got his f-class but someone lost a job, hypothetically? That would definitely put a personal lean to this….

    Your “forgive” is an interesting word to use.

    Carry on.

  • valentine

    Oh yeah, and btw, it makes my teeth itch to hear people say a company “should be made to pay for their mistake” and that BA should be “punished.” Again, too personal. You cannot sit in moral authority over a company. All you can do is rely on the legal obligations from either side. Punitive damages are just a way to “incetivize” a company, really not a “punishment.”

    (Everyone should surf over to the BA post for some truly indignant outrage. How dare they play with my emotions! They should be punished!…)

    So while I don’t like “forgive” (give me time…), I also don’t like the other extreme.
    But that’s just me.

  • Carver

    @Valentine.

    Several hundred years ago, Shakespeare must have foreseen your several posts, when he wrote about “… a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”"

    We each have our own experiences, and the question is whether those experiences are broad enough to be generally applicable. Are you telling me that every Thanksgiving and Christmas you paid less than 10 percent of the normal fare for a premium cabin, booking through AA?

    To answer your question about transactions being complete and its a fair question, I’m going by the position that the transaction is complete when each side has enforceable rights. Unfortunately, the airlines contract of carriage allows them to cancel your ticket pretty much for any reason.

    @Mike

    I understand your Best Buy analogy. The difficulty is that we are comparing goods v services. What do you think about this analogy. You contract a painter to paint your house and the contract erroneously lists $1000, when it should be $10,000.00. The painter refuses to paint your house for $1000.00, and offers to refund your money.

    In law, this is known as a scrivener’s error and the contract would not be enforceable against either party.

  • roycesmith

    But that, too, valentine is the nature of this problem–travelers like myself probably do look at things emotionally and American at those very things quite empirically/numerically/fiscally. And it is that lack of connection between two very different worlds that I had hoped American would negotiate. What would these better avenues have been? I don’t speak as an entitled person; I speak as a wronged person who has played by the rules ALWAYS for the 10+-year official relationship I have had with them. What angers me is less the first class seat and more the careless and easy way in which they take it away–without consent, without discussion, without a corporate (or otherwise) means of dialoguing. I exhausted all avenues of communication (at least the ones that I could think of since I have never had to push a matter this far with American) and was stopped in my tracks BY American. So, if coming to a forum and raising awareness about something that has the potential to have far greater and graver consequences for the flying public that “contracts” with AA expecting a certain fare or level of service are things that offend or cause people to view me negatively, so be it. I believe strongly in my position, and I know lots of other people who have been pummeled by the airlines do, too. What has begun here is a new chapter in commercial aviation in which airlines can step out of agreements WHENEVER they see fit; so tread softly with your Kansas City-Vegas fares for $50…What this situation shows you is that American can step in and cancel whenever and for whatever reason it wishes to.

  • JS

    Valentine wrote:

    “JS: You wrote, “…but this is within AA’s discretion.” Is it? Based on what? I’ve never read anything like this in the contract for carriage, though it is definitely possible I’m not interpreting something appropriately.”

    Hi Valentine.

    I’ll elaborate on that post. Originally, I posted the following on this thread, quoting from AA’s website:

    “The Content may contain inaccuracies and/or typographical errors. American Airlines may alter, change or improve the Content at any time and without notice. American Airlines makes no representations or warranties as to the Content’s completeness or accuracy, and makes no commitment to update the Content. American Airlines makes no representations about the Content’s suitability for any purpose.

    YOU USE THE SITE AT YOUR OWN RISK.”

    http://www.aa.com/i18n/footer/legal.jsp

    So…since AA can change anything about their content, changing someone’s ticket from first class to coach would seem to be within their discretion. This seems like a very broad way of doing business! But it is, and if people want to fly on AA, that’s the essentially unlimited loophole contract that they’re going with.

    The alternative would be to Not fly on AA, and let that carrier go the way of Eastern and other failed, bankrupt airlines. So AA risks alienating customers by doing what it did to Prof. Smith. This bad, bad PR is probably not good for AA’s bottom line, but that’s their company’s problem.

    Anyway, that’s why I said that what AA did was within their discretion, as their contract essentially allows them to change whatever they please, whenever they want to.

    But when people still buy tickets on AA, they’re taking a risk, especially if the folks don’t read AA’s fine print. It’s just the way that some companies do business. I’ve been burned at least once, myself, by a bad company which seemed good. So when it’s really important, it pays to read the fine print.

    But this situation seems to be rather…well…not too important. I mean, sure, the difference between first class and coach on an international flight is really a difference between a fantastic flight and an okay flight, but given AA’s contract loopholes clearly stated on their website, it would seem to be difficult for Prof. Smith to argue that AA is in the wrong and owes him monetary damages, in a courtroom setting. I would advise him to talk to an attorney via a free consultation and find out if he has any “case.”

    I would guess that he would not, but perhaps there is some obscure law that would invalidate AA’s legal text on their website. It might be worth a shot.

    I’d be interested in hearing about how this turned out, too!

    Finally for this post, I’d like to thank Chris Elliott for this fun article! My sympathies for Prof. Smith, too. I’m sure he was looking forward to a fantastic flight, only to be disappointed with a regular coach seat and a $200 voucher, which isn’t nearly as much fun.

  • valentine

    Carver,
    You wrote: “Are you telling me that every Thanksgiving and Christmas you paid less than 10 percent of the normal fare for a premium cabin, booking through AA?”

    (sigh) No. If you had read what I wrote (as well as that of meanmoosh and “S” and a bunch of others) you would have realized that I’ve written that we routinely paid 1/10th OF, not 1/10th less. And yes, three of the years were on AA. (Four were United, three on Northwest/KLM.) Are you even reading anyone else’s posts here (S…meanmoosh…)? I’m done restating this. Maybe you can get one of the many other people upthread to re-type their fare for you a half dozen times. And doubt theirs if you want, but we KNEW when to look for our deal and would plan on it re-appearing, choosing itineraries and getting hotel options ready before the sale began EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.

    “I’m going by the position that the transaction is complete when each side has enforceable rights.” So you’re just kind of thinking this up on your own?
    What aspect of contract law are you citing? Or what actual case where that was the basis of the decision (so establishes precedent). But you wrote “I’m going by…” which means this is your own invention.

    I haven’t disagreed with your premise (though I disagree with the conclusions you leap to off of them) because, as I’ve said, I don’t know either. But I have asked what piece of law or the c-of-c you are basing it off of. At this point, I’m not sure if you are simply unable to distinguish the difference between citing an actual source and your own assumptions, but I’m done asking what FACT (case law or even, untested statute) you are basing this on.

    Royce: Too many emotional adjectives. At least for me, the ONLY case you might have had was based on AA’s legal obligation from a contract: anything beyond that (which your last post rather implies) is just foot stamping. In my opinion. But then, I’ve never been a person so bold as to think my feelings are legally contractual (i.e. that I’m “owed”). At least to me, you weren’t “wronged.” That word is for wives whose husbands cheat, that sort of thing. The only interesting thing here is NOT your emotional angst, just at what point the airline is contractually obligated to fulfill anything ever. (Please read JS’ point about AA’s right to be an ass…I’m paraphrasing.) Since neither you nor anyone else (sorry JS, more below) can actually quote any statutes or case law (interpretation of those statutes), I still don’t know what is right here.

    I’m not saying AA handled this right. But neither you nor I know what they are actually obligated to provide and at what point in the interaction. The dollar amount is not insubstantial: why haven’t you spoken to a lawyer? I know I was dialing for legal help pretty quick when I got into a $7000 dispute with a tile guy…and yours is more than that. You could up-end the very system you currently decry. Change is only possible by challenging this

    If your real point is the tyranny of the airlines, then why not legally challenge them so their obligations are on the books….as opposed to just being willing to fly f-class. That would help a lot more people (actually legally protecting them) instead of just getting you champagne.

    If you can’t afford to (though that is a tough sell since you spring break in Australia), the ACLU has been known to fight for just causes and has recently taken on TSA.

    I’m pretty sure that whatever AA is obligated to deliver – or not – ISN’T based on your feelings. (I could be wrong. What part of our legal system are you referring to, where “anger” can be monetized? Wouldn’t most of the cabbies in NYC be rich then?)

    JS: I get the “content” wiggle (from when you cited it before). I think it would be interesting for someone lawyer-ish to get “content” defined once and for all. Because I think of content as something you read or see. I questioned earlier, when does the “content” legal loopholes become subject to contract law? I know contract law has some pieces that can simply be disclaimed and some bits that cannot ever be. I don’t know where this falls, but I think the word “content” is interestingly ambiguous (and I wouldn’t have thought that paragraph was pursuant to the already-accepted-your-cc part of AA/customer interaction). Is content prior to transaction? Does anybody really know?

    I’m just thinking out loud (so please don’t think I’m drilling you with impossible questions). All of this is interesting.

    I agree that AA doesn’t owe damages. Good heavens, how was royce harmed? (We’ll ignore the time travel aspect of that, since how do you show damages for a flight that hasn’t taken place yet…) My dad was given the wrong med and he went into cardiac arrest (sudden death) on our living room floor. He lived and (defying all odds here) was mentally fine (tho that was a scary month after). My mom couldn’t sue because he wasn’t “harmed.” (“Well, he was, you know, like kind of dead for a little bit there…” Not something that was permanent, so, no damages. Can’t sue for “it scared me.”)

    I agree with you (though not yet about the def of “content”) that this should be approached from a legal standpoint. And that American is free to conduct business (as long as its legal) in any customer-alienating way they choose. You aren’t owed politeness or kindness. You are right, your recourse is to read the fine print and/or just not do business with them.

  • Mike

    @Carver

    “What do you think about this analogy. You contract a painter to paint your house and the contract erroneously lists $1000, when it should be $10,000.00. The painter refuses to paint your house for $1000.00, and offers to refund your money. ”

    Yes, that one is a little better. However the problem still exists. You see, if I went to court, I could show that this very same contractor had painted houses for others for less than $2,000 in the past and has even painted someone’s house white for $1,000, with the difference being my house I want blue. I could show by sworn statements and records that this contractor has indeed in the past offered AND completed similar jobs for far less than the $10,000 he is now demanding.

    As such, would the court see this $1,000 bid as a contractor needing business and purely looking to back out of a legal contract, or would they say it was a pure mistake? Given the history of low rates proven, I would think it would be found to be a legitimate proposal.

    Either ay, the painter will likely get loads of bad press, will lose work because of it, and in the end would lose a lot more money and image than the small hit he would have taken on this one job.

  • JS

    Valentine,

    Ah, I was unclear about the “Content”. Please allow me this opportunity to elaborate with new information from AA:

    “All information, products, services and software contained on or used in the Site (“Content”) is Copyright 2001 by American Airlines, Inc.”

    So the service of carriage from the US to Aus is a service that AA would provide Prof. Smith, and this service falls under “Content”. This is part of the contract, now. To be even clearer about AA’s contract, again quoting from their website:

    “Thank you for visiting the American Airlines Web site titled “aa.com” (the “Site”). In return for gaining access to the Site and using it, you agree to be bound by the following Agreement without limitation or qualification, so please carefully review this Agreement before proceeding. If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site. American Airlines reserves the right to change this Agreement and to make changes to any of the products or programs described in the Site at any time without notice or liability.”

    The carriage from the US to Aus can also be considered to be a product, which AA can change “at any time without notice or liability.”

    Now…is this really a part of Prof. Smith’s contract? Yes it is, according to AA’s legal stuff: “In return for gaining access to the Site and using it, you agree to be bound by the following Agreement without limitation or qualification, so please carefully review this Agreement before proceeding. If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site.”

    So basically AA is saying, this is a legal contract, we can change pretty much whatever we want to, and if you don’t like it, go fly on another airline or take a train or boat or whatever. For folks who don’t like our contract and who want to complain too much, we have an answer for them, too: “American Airlines also reserves the right in its sole and unfettered discretion to deny you access to the Site at any time.”

    So AA can tell people who want to complain too much that they won’t do business with that customer anymore. There isn’t a “right to fly.”

    So…that’s the legal stuff where AA is right.

    I have something to say to Prof. Smith, too, about bureaucracy within AA. Basically, what I’m about to say is all conjecture, since I’m not a member of AA’s bureaucracy, but I have experience as a middle manager, so perhaps the similar philosophy applies here.

    Apparently an underling entered in the wrong price for your trip to Aus on AA’s website. Middle managers review the work of underlings periodically, ensuring that they don’t make too many mistakes, and your fare was one of those mistakes. So the middle management changed the mistake, and presented their change in a daily report to upper management. Since upper management approved their change in the daily report, that change is permanent at the level of the middle manager and underlings. So when you called AA to complain, you spoke to underlings, who, upon conferring with the middle managers to escalate your complaint, were told no, the change stands, and don’t bother us again. The middle manager isn’t going to complain to upper management, as upper management is too busy to hear the middle managers except in daily reports.

    That’s why Chris Elliott’s strategy of an email or letter is so effective. Middle management can show that letter to upper management in their daily reports, and upper management might consider that letter more carefully, since upper management will skim the letter, usually. That’s when upper management can take notice and make changes in your favor.

    But now Chris is essentially saying that upper management is pissed off, dug in their heels, so to speak. So now only someone higher than upper management can fix the problem for you, and that might be the DOT, or, more likely, a judge, especially if AA fails to show up to court.

    That was just my opinion, though, speaking as a middle manager who often enforced the unpopular decisions of upper management, while giving the upper management daily reports about the management decisions I made.

  • roycesmith

    How was I harmed? How has my trust been harmed and my faith that an airline will deliver what it says it will? I understand all of the complex legal jargon that AA can hide behind to excuse their behavior, but (a) how much of it is readily accessible and understandable by the flying public, (b) how much of it actually conflicts with or contradicts existing consumer laws (i.e. deceptive pricing, advertised pricing, etc.), and (c) what precedent does THIS decision set for all future moments when AA wants to back-pedal on contracts that they have made with the public (i.e. when the credit card charge posts)? Maybe AA CAN do these things, but I am willing to look at what my State’s Attorney General has to say about the matter; I am writing up a formal complaint today and sending it to Topeka.

    By the way, I can hardly see how or why AA would be “digging in the heels.” I had two people who made enquiries to AA about the issue, so I don’t see how or why that would anger management…Because I didn’t want to accept the paltry offer they made (and refused to put in writing)? Because I had the audacity to challenge their authority to be able to cancel my tickets without my permission?

  • valentine

    JS: Thank you for the “content” clarification. You’re right, they have fairly neatly covered every contingency. This part is my favorite: “…in its sole and unfettered discretion to deny you access to the site…” Seriously, I’m pretty sure that is art.

    I’m just guessing, but I doubt these are words that calm DOWN situations:
    paltry
    audacity
    hide
    deceptive
    back-pedal
    By the way, royce, do you think Carver’s use of “histrionic” and “idiot” for me were meant to be conciliatory? He is trying to convince me/others that his points were valid; do you think those words helped sway me toward his view? I still read what he wrote because I chose to. I might make a different decision if this wasn’t just an intellectual exercise. Certainly I don’t respect his need to belittle. Maybe that is just my reaction, but I do know I feel the same disinclination toward anyone who uses the aren’t-I-clever-while-you-are-all-too-stupid tact in discussion, not just toward me. (For God’s sake, he quoted Shakespeare. And chose to whip out one of the most common phrases ever, second only to “to be or not to be.” Now if he had quoted Antiphones or Moliere…)

    Remember the comment he made to you: “So many red herrings, so little time.” There were other, more didactic, ways to communicate his point without the ‘tude. His point was actually quite valid – your arguments aren’t sound – but he didn’t have to be an ass about it.

    I chose to ignore Carver’s inflammatory remarks, but maybe because I have no real ability to change the situation. The “higher ups” do…by digging in their heels. You want “why”? Just because they can. Because they work for AA and you don’t. Because without a lawyer (or a case, for that matter) they are in charge and you aren’t. They have more power, money, and legal resources than you, and they wrote the c-of-c and you didn’t.

    Words matter. If you can’t see how this particular rhetoric could make somebody in power decide to wield it mercilessly (and however capriciously), then I’m not sure what to say. There is a difference between saying you “walked” down the street versus “sashayed” or “ambled” or “skulked.” They all have you ambulating over the sidewalk at roughly the same pace, but the last three are editorially charged. I can’t speak for AA but knowing anything about human nature says the words you use are gasoline on the fire, and AA higher-ups can refuse your calls, page through their Rolodex of lawyers-on-retainer while deleting your emails, and play chicken with your legal rights. Because they can, and because (I think) it is possible that you inflamed the situation. Certainly the words you choose aren’t designed to bring out the best in human nature.

    Regarding your loss of “trust” and “faith” being the harm, I’m not sure what to say because you aren’t a child anymore. This isn’t marriage. It is business. They have every right to conduct their business as rat-finks. And you damn well know that businesses do every day. As long as it is within the current statutes of the laws that govern this, then that is their right. (And it is their right to spend tens of millions of dollars to lobby congress to make sure that those statutes stay in their favor. After all, we elected the gov’t reps that cave in for graft.)

    Read any of Chris’ posts. They are so neutral and even-handed it is inhuman. But that is what is needed with issues of big-giant-soulless-corporation up against little-tiny-helpless-consumer. And you will notice that his assistance is regardless of the offended party’s outrage or indignation.

    Chris gets some pretty good results that way.

  • roycesmith

    Valentine: Message received loud and clear…I don’t even know how to respond to what you wrote…

  • valentine

    All that said, I definitely think you should find out if all of AA’s disclaimers violate consumer law or basic contracts. (Think of going to a water park and every ten feet is a sign saying they aren’t responsible for ANY injuries. Yes, they are. Printing up signs doesn’t absolve them of negligence, though the signs definitely imply as much. So that is a case of when claim violates law.)

    I do hope you pursue this, if only because the airlines are already drunk with the fiction they spew. I think it is alarming to anticipate what latitude they will have in applying the fat finger claim to anything they need a mulligan for. (I don’t mind them having rules; I mind them making up new ones as you go along.) Just make sure if you go up against them, that you win.

    State attorney is fine. Try a real contract lawyer, too. Call a good one and they’ll do a sit-down for free. Even if they won’t take your case, take notes because every lawyer has a different angle (which is why OJ needed so many) and something different to contribute to how to analyze this.

    Personally, I’m moving to the side of “meh” (what Chris calls forgiveness). It was a mistake. I strongly disagree with their current customer retention business model, but that doesn’t mean this situation was spawned from evil. Would your intent to pursue this to so vigorously change if AA’s reps had been more kind? What if someone at AA had been trying for the last week to fix this, you knew they were trying, and then they failed to do so. Would that change the path?

    (For what it’s worth, you write the way we were all taught, using power verbs and colorful descriptors, invoking emotion in your reader. I just think this isn’t a venue where that writing style will pay dividends.)

  • roycesmith

    Yes, my response would have been far different if they had treated me like someone who has been loyal to the airline for years, like someone who genuinely believed (based on the information their own website provided) they were purchasing a fare that was legit. I think you hit on a good point, which is that AA’s current customer retention model is seriously flawed. For this incident, everyone–whether they just purchased this fare and would have been flying AA/QF for the first time or whether they had 2 million miles with AA under their belt like I have–got the same raw deal, the same “circle-your-wagons,” “deny-deny-deny” angle. For me, I would have been VERY amenable to a compromise–let’s say a seat in business class in QF, first class on AA, and the miles that I would have accumulated in first class. Maybe that’s not reasonable to their CR team, but it would have been a start to show more goodwill than the heavy-handedness they have–up to this point–used with me.

    I sent my letter off to the AG today, so we’ll see where that goes. Meanwhile, it looks like United and Continental both will let me do a challenge with them and perhaps get Gold Status in the Star Alliance for travel. That may end up being the best card I have–switching my business and that of my students to carriers with a better CR model. It’s sad that most posters here agree with the rawness of how I have been treated, but also how a similar quantity of posters seem to believe in a “learned helplessness” when they speak of airlines…that they are simply too big, too mean, and too overstaffed with lawyers for the public to confront their wicked ways. I guess time will tell when and if and how this will be resolved…So far, nothing….

  • http://www.roamingtales.com Caitlin

    The right thing to do would be to downgrade/upgrade him to business class at no extra cost.

  • http://www.roamingtales.com Caitlin

    Also that doesn’t seem like an especially good fare for economy class.

  • valentine

    My point in asking if their attitude makes a difference for defining your actions: nuh uh, no fair. I’m not sure that I agree that your actions should be dictated by the idiocy around you. (The equivalent: when business people treat “nice” customers ok, but feel justified in ripping off – or just phoning it in – for customers that don’t please them, however arbitrary that assessment. Haven’t you seen the pretty blond girl get preferential treatment? That’s the same thing, only based on looks. And that says quite a bit about those people that do that: that their behavior can be bought off – in this example, by a bottle of peroxide.) Either you believe AA is contractually wrong or you don’t.

    Here is a common philosophy trick, take your point to the extreme and see if it still sounds ok:
    Go down the road of your concept of basing your actions on the other person’s attitude (far, FAR down the road): this is how men justify beating their wives and kids. You are either patient or you’re not, you are either fair or not, you are either compassionate or not…NOT just when people earn that. (The most important time for all of those things is specifically when it is hardest, when people don’t deserve it. There is a difference in, for instance, being kind or just able to do kind things.)

    I’m not opposing compromise. I’m just saying that fighting to the death is either worthwhile or it isn’t. If compromise is warranted, then good. But do it even-handedly, based on YOUR needs, not their poor attitude.

    I do think the “learned helplessness” thing is valid. Which is why, if you think you have true issue, you should find out what your rights are and make a decision based on those facts. (I know Chris disagrees with this, but I do think too many people just roll over and take it, accepting their diminished rights because they believe it when told they don’t have any, or are unwilling to step out of their ennui… and some companies run with this and become bullies (TSA and most airlines, I’m talking to you, here). Just knowing more – both about what rights you have and don’t have – will help you choose not just what to do in this situation but also whether to fly in the future, AA or otherwise. Informed decisions are always easier to swallow. Truly, ring some contract lawyers. Good ones will talk to you.

    If you wipe out with all of that or choose to let it go, remember that you can choose to fly or not, AA or not. And at the very least, know that the kind of people that create all the policies over at AA aren’t nice and have probably lost sight of some part of their sense of ethics (note to AA: just because you can, doesn’t mean you should); and that’s okay because you aren’t them. The people who refused to talk to you are just corporate drones, probably repeating what they were told. Never attribute to malice that can be explained by ignorance. Most people aren’t evil, they’re just stupid. (I know, I know, it isn’t pc to say people are stupid. But I think a lot of them are, so there it is.)

    Let them be coin-sucking, money-whoring pigs; that doesn’t mean that any of us have to be the same.

  • valentine

    “circle-your-wagons,” “deny-deny-deny” It is maddening if only because it lacks honor. Either you are proud of your actions or you aren’t, but don’t hide. THAT’s what torques me off.

    Forgot to add, I definitely think holding people’s feet to the fire is okay (obviously). It is their fire. It isn’t part of any morality to not defend your rights. But I wouldn’t want to behave like them in the process.

    (Anyone know what is to prevent airlines from declaring fat finger when a plane gets too full? I mean, say some flight accidentally fills up beyond their yield management expectations at a low price…What is to prevent the airlines from declaring those fares errors and trying again to fill the plane at a higher rate?)

  • roycesmith

    @valentine….YES, and that was my point, as well. This case (as well as the BA India fares disaster) illustrates how little is being done to regulate what airlines can do and will do in the future…That is part of why I am so willing to pursue this matter, because if I fly, let’s say, from Wichita to London with my class and they quote me a group rate of $800, what (NOW) is to stop them–once I have had my students scrimp and save THAT amount–from asking for even more by calling it an “error” or a “miscalculation.” Mr. Smith–the media spokesman for AA who basically implied I was devoid of any common sense for not “knowing” that the fare was in error–can’t have it both ways: working for an airline that perpetuates the culture of the “special” and the “deal” and the “too-good-to-be-true” excuse that gets AA off the hook.

    I have a student who suggested a good contract lawyer here in town, so I may just see what he has to say! I wonder what HAS happened with those folks who chose to sue BA over the India fares…….

  • y_p_w

    I’d think declaring a “fare error” is a little bit tricky. They might not be able to get enough people to book at a higher rate, especially if it’s close to the day of the flight. It might also be a matter of how often this happens. A legitimate data entry mistake like this one is probably rare, while declaring “fare errors” routinely might subject an airline to thousands of irate customers and class-action lawsuits.

    I have encounter one really odd bump UP once. This was years ago when international flights still had smoking sections. The plane we were on had a unique configuration compared to other planes of the same type in the airline’s fleet. Where our row of seats was supposed to be, there was a customized floor to ceiling baggage stowage area. There were unused seats in business class, and we ended up sitting there (which was non-smoking) and getting business class meals and service.

  • David Z

    Anyone know what is to prevent airlines from declaring fat finger when a plane gets too full? I mean, say some flight accidentally fills up beyond their yield management expectations at a low price…What is to prevent the airlines from declaring those fares errors and trying again to fill the plane at a higher rate?

    Doing it perhaps too often and consistent to get some government authority’s notice?

  • valentine

    I once read that a Continental flight going across the country made a final profit of like $150. Yeah, so that’s not a typo. (This was a couple years ago so I don’t know if this is currently true.)

    All they would have to do is fat finger one passenger with some supersaver fare and try to sell it for $100 more.

    An airline could instantly increase their profit by 60%. And that is just by screwing over ONE passenger. I could easily see a very simple computer program: a sold-out flight, someone tries to get a seat on that flight, the computer recognizes this new person’s fare is X dollars (some threshold) higher than the lowest fare (currently assigned to seat 23D or whatever), and the new passenger gets to buy that seat…AND, the computer generates a letter to the person that USED to be in 23D that their fare was in error.

    Obviously the computer would have to match the supersaver fare passenger with the right number of people flying together but that is a pretty simple aspect to match.

    I’m not saying it would work on every flight. Maybe no one tries to buy a ticket for X dollars more. But they already use all these metrics for yield management. Sure, they might piss off a stray passenger here or there (or more) but this would obviously generate increased revenue. Sort of like Ford’s math with the Pinto gas tank, I’m sure the powers-that-be can calculate how much extra revenue is worth the flying pattern of the person we’re about to piss off. (Think of the rant by the Spirit CEO, he was rude but accurate – some people will be back to save a penny. And you can probably take a pretty good guess who those people are by their revenue history or route pattern.)

    Sure there will be an outcry when people figure out that a LOT of passengers are getting nicked with this fare error thing. Someone might even accuse the airline of doing exactly what they’re doing. BUT…
    1.) How can you prove it? Airlines don’t have to prove anything when declaring a mulligan.
    2.) And once it works for the first one, then every airline will start to do it, too. (Think of the keening and wailing for whichever airline started charging for baggage. Now they all do, damn the unhappy passengers full steam ahead.) There is safety in numbers.

    Where am I wrong?

  • valentine

    By the way, if the airline can sell three tickets for $800 each on a flight, but they have to kick off three passengers who paid $200, can’t the airline just point to the current $800 ticket price as “proof” that $200 should qualify as a “fare error”?

    And as long as you boot the entire traveling group, I think it would take a while to figure this out. (How would you know that some couple also on the flight paid even less than your “error” but survived because there is only two of them and the computer needed, say, three seats to up-sell and you were traveling in a party of three.)

  • y_p_w

    I think the problem is that they wouldn’t be able to do this in a vacuum. In order to show that a fare seemed legitimate, it could be compared to other fares when the customer was comparison shopping. If the competitors were offering documented $350-400 fares and someone booked a $320 fare, claiming a “fat finger” would seem to be a stretch.

    What’s probably more likely to happen is an overbooking. In that case I might imagine that an airline might bump off a passenger, but there are rules
    for that. They have to offer incentives (cash, vouchers, meals, hotels) for people to voluntarily give up their seat and that gets expensive. They would also have to get the passenger on the next available flight.

    And as Christopher Elliott wrote, this case might have been a bit different because the airline didn’t “deny carriage”. Once an airline starts completely bumping people off the plane (and not rescheduling to a later flight) compared to just moving them to a different class, that becomes harder to justify. Usually airlines think carefully about how they price flights, and even if the situation/demand changes, I don’t think they take the risks of lawsuits or not getting a seat filled.

  • valentine

    So the airlines use the “error” reason to change a fare. And as has been discussed here, their c-of-c might indeed allow them to change any fare for any reason at any time.

    So take my example above of a sold-out flight and just replace the computer-generated “fare error” letter with a computer-generated “for reasons we don’t have to disclose, we are invoking our ability to cancel/change your ticket/fare.” And they don’t owe any bump compensation because they cancelled the ticket before you were standing at the gate. (There must be a reason that airlines don’t “choose to cancel” tickets instead of bumping when overbooked…maybe because you now have a boarding pass?)

    Seems legal, so now no lawsuits. Couldn’t they have sent a generic letter to royce, instead of citing “error”?

  • roycesmith

    Also, one other question: When the four “options” were initially presented and I refused to respond because they were not in writing, they removed ALL other modes and methods of complaint or protest, EXCEPT writing to Customer Relations; they closed all other methods of communication. When I asked them what would happen to my booking, they assured me that the cancellation plans would be placed on hold UNTIL they received my written letter of complaint and claim. They cancelled my ticket BEFORE the time agreed to in our conversation (which of course is verbal and what IS in writing in my PNR file is actually many times a misrepresentation of the discussion that has been had). Isn’t this denial of carriage, based on American’s actions?

  • y_p_w

    I didn’t find anything in AA’s conditions of carriage that addressed an erroneously published fare. However – this is domestic, and I couldn’t find their conditions for international flights.

    http://www.aa.com/i18nForward.do?p=/customerService/customerCommitment/conditionsOfCarriage.jsp

    Now Alaska Airlines does have list the right to correct erroneously published fares (I claim “fair use” and will note that I corrected a couple of obvious spelling mistakes on their website):

    http://www.alaskaair.com/as/www2/company/tariff/domestic/tariff_domestic_section1.asp

    AS will exercise reasonable efforts to ensure that all fares it publishes are accurate and available for sale, but AS reserves the right to correct any erroneously published fare that AS did not intend to offer for sale. In the event that an erroneous fare is inadvertently published for sale and a ticket is used at the erroneous fare before it has been corrected, AS reserves the right to cancel the ticket purchase and refund all amounts paid by the purchaser, or, at the the purchaser’s option, to reissue the ticket for the correct fare.

  • valentine

    Am I blind or does United and Continental have NO such weasel disclaimer (like JS quoted) on their c-of-c or the “legal” part at the bottom of the webpage? Am I just missing it?

    AA is also the only airline that I’ve found so far to repeal Rule 260.

    Maybe the problem is not the big carriers getting nasty to customers. Maybe the problem is AA.