Do I deserve a refund for a “minor” problem on my river cruise?

Bill and Mary Lou Haas were looking forward to a peaceful European river cruise booked through Vantage Travel during the Christmas holidays. But their expectations were figuratively shattered when they found several unexpected guests would be joining them on their vacation: kids.

“One of the clauses in our cruise contract states that the cruise has no accommodations for passengers under the age of 12,” Haas told me. “However, upon arrival at the Amsterdam airport, we found out that there was an extended family with four children as young as three that were traveling with us.”

Needless to say, even the best-behaved kids can ruin a river cruise. Unlike the larger ocean vessels where young passengers can be sent to an arcade or play area, riverboats are small and intimate. (We left our then 18-month-old toddler with his grandparents when we went on Danube riverboat cruise a few years ago, a decision we didn’t regret when we saw how small ship was and how well noise traveled.)

Haas and several other passengers spoke with a cruise line representative at the airport, reminding him of the no kids rule.

“His only answer was that it was a corporate decision and left us no other option,” he remembers.

You can probably imagine what happened next. The Haases reluctantly boarded the vessel, and for two weeks, their holiday riverboat cruise resembled a playground. Children were running around the ship, laughing and yelling.

Bottom line: the passengers didn’t get the adults-only cruise they’d booked.

When the cruise ended, they complained to Vantage, but the company will do little more than admit that its “no kids” rule had been bent.

Complaints and request for a refund of the cruise portion of the trip have fallen on deaf ears.

They readily admit to violating their end of the contract, saying it was a consideration made for the holiday season.

They refuse a refund and have offered a $1,000 per person credit for my next Vantage cruise.

Haas wonders what would have happened if he and his wife had violated the Vantage contract — say, by bringing a pet. Would the company had denied them passage? Probably.

“The travel credit is a joke since I never plan to travel with Vantage again,” he added.

Is the $1,000 cruise credit enough? Or should I push Advantage to refund Haas’ entire cruise?

I’m conflicted about this. From Haas’ account, it seems clear that Vantage violated its own “no kids” policy, and a $1,000 cruise credit is a nice gesture. But nothing says “I’m sorry” like a partial refund — real money being sent back to an aggrieved customer.

A cruise credit, on the other hand, says, “We’re sorry for the way we made you feel.”

I think Vantage should pay for breaking its own rules. But I’m not sure I can advocate for a full refund, because after all, the Haases cruised for two weeks, enjoying food, service and fabulous European ports of call. Had Vantage denied them those amenities, then I might be more comfortable pushing Vantage to offer the couple a refund.

Then again, Vantage didn’t give the couple the cruise they thought they’d bought. Isn’t a refund an appropriate penalty?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

     Since I do not intend to depose anyone or subpeona any records this counsellor finds that that distinction to be meaningless to the points and issues that are being presented.  The OPs claims are not incredible.  So I choose to address the situation as is rather than spending time and effort hemming, hawing, and hedging.

    Would you have preferred I preface every comment with, “Assuming arguendo the veracity of Plaintiff’s statement….”

    Would that be technically more linguistically accurate, yes.  Would it advance any major point or issue. NO! It is unwieldly and just sounds snobbishly vain.  The question posed presupposes that the cruise ship violated its contract.  If it didn’t there is no issue.  Accordingly, lets begin there.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

    But did the tour advertise itself and no children?

  • BillCCC

    Nope, I read the whole thing. I am curious as to what portion you think I missed? You seem to have added portions that were not there in the first place.

  • TonyA_says

    Joe, Vantage/GCT/OAT is not your typical cruise line. They are like a membership club where seniors do a lot of REPEAT travel with them. It is reasonable for older people to expect the Vantage cruises will not have any children.

    I took a river cruise with my 3 kids (and large extended family) when they were 9 to 16 years old. I did my research and learned that Vantage and GCT don’t want kids in their boats. We ended up sailing with the Germans on Peter Deilmann (now closed). What a great experience with Europeans on board. Very classy and refined.

    I have also bumped with Vantage and GCT travelers as they did their land tours. I have never observed young kids with them on their chartered tour buses or in their hotels. They look like 100% American oldies.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OEPJGQPIEB75YYDE5CJY6R3VFE Carver Clark Farrow II

    Not really.  Its a fact specific scenario.  It depends on whether not boarding was a reasonable option under the circumstances.  Could they have reasonably rebooked.

    Suppose all other river cruises were booked making it impossibe to rebook.

  • ClareClare

    You obviously don’t live in Italy, as I do!  Give me American children over Italian (or Spanish) ones ANY DAY…

  • TonyA_says

     They must be playing American video games.

  • Miami510

    I voted “no.”  In this world there isn’t a satisfactory remedy for every hurt.  Sometimes the satisfaction comes in the form of “a pound of flesh;” using a Website like this, telling anyone who will listen, about the Vantage river cruises. 
     
    If I were to consider a river cruise, I’d absolutely not consider Vantage, and I’d be forewarned to discuss this detail with any agency before. 
     
    Side note:  The value in a Website such as this, is the impact the public knowledge of malfeasance will have on all travel companies.  In this electronic age, stories like this can “go viral” in a short time and when people in the travel industry find that their poor or meaningless offers are seen by tens of thousands, and not just the complaining party, they will change their ways.

  • Joe_D_Messina

    Well, Bill, to quote you: 

    “I did not read anything that indicated that the cruise was anything other than what they expected. Unless they expected the adults not to laugh or speak above a whisper.”

    It’s quite clear they didn’t expect there to be kids on the boat. It further notes the kids were running around and yelling. (If the adults on your river cruises are doing that, I’d be quite surprised.) Chris further noted that from his own experience children can really be an issue on these smaller boats.  What do you think I added to the story? 

  • Sandra Olson

    We have traveled with Vantage 5 times on River Cruises and I would have been very dismayed to have little kids as part of the passenger list. I like kids…well behaved kids, that is….as well as the next one but these expensive cruises are for adults and the company of other adults is what I crave onboard.  There are tons of cruises that are family-friendly, kid-focused etc.  Families with little children should also consider that the kiddos will have a better time where there are facilities geared for their enjoyment.  A small-ship river cruise is NOT the place for anyone under 12 and even then those kids might get bored with some of the things on the agenda.  This was Vantage’s bad, just to sell some cabins.  Poor choice; the couple should get a partial refund…in real money. Vantage has lost a customer over this.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/25N6MMTTU4NVY63Z2MMBYJLFSE Oxenpfeffer

     I agree 100%! I have children myself, mine are younger than yours appear to be but are all old enough to self-care (teens).  When I know I will be heading to a child-friendly place I have one set of expectations; when I am heading to an adults-only place my expectations are completely different.  Sometimes I want to relax and not deal with kids, sometimes I want to relax and watch kids play and goof around. 

    For me, I would have been VERY upset if kids were allowed after I thought they were not, not because I don’t like kids, but because kids change the dynamic and because I modify my behavior around children.  When I am around adults only I can completely relax and be selfishly quiet and read a book or something, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do this with kids around.

    They need attention and require constant monitoring and feedback. As a mom I worry they will pull something over on themselves, fall off something, whatever…and it’s no use telling me their parents should be worrying I KNOW that and I still worry.  Sadly, some parents don’t worry at all.  I even had one mom tell me “He wasn’t bothering anyone.” When I righted the table he’d overturned, took him by the hand and took him back to her.  Her astonishment when I informed her “He was bothering ME.” was priceless.

  • Sandra Olson

    I happened to think of another point: did the entire family, including the little 3 year old, pay full fare for that cruise?  In other words, Vantage sold 6 passages to that family instead of the usual 2?  Hmmm, that might just be the straw that bent the “under 12″ policy. That being said, there really IS a difference between “no accommodations for anyone under age 12″ and “no bookings for anyone under age 12″.

  • ExplorationTravMag

    Parents like the one you describe drive me right up a wall.  

    I had a similar experience at a restaurant that was supposed to be adults only after a certain hour.  Someone’s “precious darling” around the age of about 5 or 6 walked up to our table to “talk” to us.  I was gobsmacked, to say the least, when I asked, “Where are your parents?” and he replied with, “In the bar.”  He sat down at our table and promptly dug into our appetizers while my husband and I sat there and stared.  I finally took the child to the bar and we found his parents.  They gave me a similar response, with no apology in sight, and I responded with, “No, what you meant to say was – he’s not bothering YOU!”

    I turned on my heel and walked out, their mouths still agape.  The manager comped us our appetizers and brought us fresh one now that a grubby little hand had dived into ours with all their five-year-old germs (which sounds harsh, I know, but have you ever SEEN a 5 year old wash their hands?  Nope, neither have I)

    So much for our 15th anniversary…

  • ExplorationTravMag

    Wish I could like this one a few more times…  I can handle laughter in all forms.  It’s the screaming when these precious darlings don’t get that fourth serving of ice cream that gets to me.

  • TonyA_says

    The OP had a reasonable expectation that the cruise would be seniors only since Vantage markets their products to predominantly seniors here in America.

  • mszabo

    If they cruise line broke their contract, then the only valid recourse seems to be a 100% refund.  Starting with an offer of cruise credit seems very insulting.  

  • Lindabator

    But not so simple – they sailed for 2 weeks, ate for 2 weeks, didn’t refuse to board — the problem here is expecting a full refund – too much to ask for 4 kids on board.  (They should have kept making a stink onboard – they would have gotten farther than with the transfer people at the airport!)

  • JPainis

    OP needs to unclench his sphincter a little. I can understand that kids can be annoying and such, but demanding a full refund is essentially saying that they did not get anything out of the cruise, which is hard to believe. A partial refund (not credit) might be appropriate, but anything more is greedy.

  • TonyA_says

    Sandra, I suspect the kids were also with their grandparents. I have seen multi-generational travel in river cruises because they are really easy to take. With approximately 150-175 passengers only, it provides an excellent opportunity for family bonding. Personally, I have no problems with kids as long as they are WELL BEHAVED. There are a lot of land tours planned on a river cruise so kids do not have to get bored. However, IMO, I think the Danube can be a bit boring compared to the Rhone river cruise. Frankly I find it difficult to believe kids will run on the narrow corridors that connect the rooms. If they run at all, it would be on the upper deck where people are sunbathing. I have seen board games provided in small ships. And some have big chess boards on the floor of the sun deck. The OP must have encountered kids from hell.

  • Lindabator

    But the approached and complained to the transfer reps at the airport – they should have complained at the pier upon checkin, with  the ship’s purser, the hotel manager, etc.  It sounds like they only complained at the airport, and then the cruise line probably felt they used the kids as an excuse for a money grab, when in fact that’s not the case.  But sailing for 2 weeks without a peep to personnel on board isn’t going to help.  AT ALL!

  • http://twitter.com/elegant_erica Erica

    When I was a child, probably 10~ish, I went on a river cruise down the Nile with my family. I had two younger sisters as well… we were the only children on board.

    My parents got several looks, particularly from one gentleman who even voiced his complaint that there were children on “his” cruise. Unlike the one in the OP’s post, this was not a “no children allowed” cruise.

    Fortunately, my parents would have *never* taken us had we been the type of children who didn’t behave. The same man who complained about us in the beginning sought out my mother and congratulated her.

    I wish more parents were like that.

  • IrishStubborn

    If the company says “no accommodations for children under 12″ , how can they then justify selling tickets to children under 12??  I read “accommodations” to mean rooms or berths, not amenities or entertainment.  While I do not think a full refund is in order (they did take the entire cruise”, I think the $1,000 voucher should be in cash, not “funny money” that they will never use.

  • TonyA_says

     Carver, legal question here. Can a ship plying European Rivers (meaning they have to be registered in the EU?) legally prohibit transport to minors IF THEY ARE ACCOMPANIED by their parents or adults?  I’ve gotta believe they can’t bar a paying 3 year old if accompanied by a parent in the EU.

  • TonyA_says

    I just wonder if the parents of these kids felt responsible for their kids running around, laughing and yelling on the small ship? Maybe we need to start penalizing the adults. Make them responsible for destroying other people’s vacations.

    On the other hand, I believe there are other cultures where kids are accepted anywhere, anytime. In Asia, it’s common for the grandparents take care of the kids while their parents work. I doubt whether seniors there would complain of kids running around and laughing.

    Maybe Vantage has changed its target market. River cruising is becoming more and more popular. Viking has commissioned more ships (despite the economy in Europe and the USA). No doubt you will see more 3 generations traveling together in those river boats.

  • bodega3

    I gave up reading the links and went to the website and never found any wording that said, These cruises DO NOT allow children.  So it appears to me that the OP and a few others assumed no children allowed but if there is someplace that says no accommoations for children, that isn’t the same as NO CHILDREN ALLOWED.  Having sold travel for enough years that if no means no, it is very clearly stated.  

  • TonyA_says

    Do you think they were [maybe] scared of the parents? I  have noticed that some old people rarely complain face to face. Usually there is an orientation meeting right after you board so they could have done it at that time. Maybe they bit their tongue and stayed silent thinking it would help make the trip better. Maybe they thought it was useless to complain because the kids already were on board and traveled all the way from the USA. So they saved their complaint for later. But now that more old folks know that VANTAGE does this, then maybe they will lose their customers to GCT.

  • dsliesse

    I didn’t vote, since (a) I don’t know the exact wording of the contract, and (b) I don’t know the laws of Europe.  I will say the following (mostly repeats):

    (1)  A contract means exactly what it says.  Unfortunately, the wording we were shown is ambiguous (“no accommodations” can mean we don’t do anything special, no accommodations available, no accommodations allowed, etc.).

    (2)  A voucher is NEVER proper restitution.  Is Vantage going to guarantee that there won’t be kids on the next trip?

    (3)  A full refund is completely out of order in this case.  Whether or not even a partial refund should be considered depends on the specifics that we don’t know.  These cruises are marketed to seniors, but do they absolutely guarantee no children?

    (4)  I’ve run across far too many so-called adults that would be just as obnoxious.  Is the cruise company supposed to screen them, too?

    Bottom line: not enough here to go on, but at most they should get a partial refund IN NEGOTIABLE FORM, not vouchers.

  • Sadie_Cee

    Where is the “no kids rule” stipulated?  Also, did Vantage admit in writing that they had violated the contract?   
     
    The need for clarification of the meaning of the words quoted from the contract by the OP is my reason for voting in favor of mediation.  
     
    How should the statement by Vantage that “the cruise has no accommodations for passengers under the age of 12” be interpreted?  Does it mean that the cruise is “adults-only” and “child-free” or is it merely a caution to parents of young children to be aware that there are no child-focused amenities on board and that they will have to provide their own?  If this is the statement that the OP is relying on, IMO it is not the same as saying “no kids allowed.”
     
    If the parties agree that the statement means that the cruise is “adults-only” and “child-free,” then Vantage breached the contract.  As a result, the OP is entitled to a partial refund of the price paid.  If it is a warning to parents, then there was no breach and the OP is not entitled to any refund.  In hindsight, the OP should have asserted their desire for a child-free cruise and should not have booked this cruise if no assurance was given. 
     
    An extensive search of this company turned up some very useful and interesting information but the point in question was not addressed specifically.   It would be enlightening if Chris could obtain an explanation from Vantage directly and if he receives the same information that they “broke the contract” a cash refund of say,  40%-50% could be negotiated on behalf of the OP.

  • lorcha

    Did the contract state that Vantage was going to provide an adults-only cruise? If not, then they did not violate their contract with Haas. They permitted another family to violate that family’s contract with Vantage. 

    If the cruise wasn’t represented as adults-only, and Haas only relied on the “passenger can’t bring any kids” clause in the contract, then I can’t really support Vantage giving any money to Haas. The “funny money” cruise credit is sounding appropriate to me.

  • Sadie_Cee

    Indeed…some parents fail to realize that they are responsible for the social education of their children.  Consequently, such training never begins and from what I am seeing, it is becoming generational. For people who were reared in a “children should be seen and not heard” era, we cannot help but be astounded at the poor manners and disrespectful  behavior displayed by children all aided and abetted by their parents.  

    Thank goodness for the parents who model and instruct their children in proper behavior.  I have traveled where children have been among the passengers and they have been as good as gold.  I salute their parents! 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Linda-Loudermilk-Tomberlin/1344557368 Linda Loudermilk Tomberlin

    If I paid to have a child-free cruise, I expect a child-free cruise.  I don’t like children.  I don’t like to have vacations with them, but I understand that most of the time, there’s nothing you can do but grin and bear it.  I’m no ogre. 

    However if I was promised a child-free cruise, you’re darn tootin’ I’d be angry and want at least a partial refund of my CASH, not a cruise credit.  

  • the_desh

    Did the OPs really spend two weeks grousing about 4 kids on board instead of enjoying their cruise?  Did they visit majestic fjords and say to themselves “Well I could have really enjoyed this stunning landscape, except for those pesky kids on this ship”?  Unless, the OPs became involuntary babysitters or the kids kept them up at night (both issues which should be addressed to the captain, not an ombudsman after the trip), the OPs misery should be largely considered self-inflicted, regardless of their attitude towards kids (or the attitude of the many of the posters here, quite frankly).

    We can only guess at why the children were aboard - while everyone seems to be assuming that the children with the family ignored the fine print (which doesn’t say “Adults Only”, it only says ”no accomodations”, which I interpret to mean cribs and baby items; 3-12 year olds can sleep in adult beds).  Equally likely is that a TA booked the cruise for the family without checking the targeted age demographic and they are just as much “victims” as the OPs – except they chose to make the best of a cruise surrounded by “old farts” :)  And in that case, what would the cruise line do – bar boarding, resulting in another case of the week here?

    Quite frankly, if 4 kids out of 175 passengers really ruins your vacation and you don’t have the guts to address the issue during the vacation, then you’re most likely someone who whines and is never satisfied with anything in the first place.

    I normally don’t agree with the funny money refunds, but this is one of those situations that the cruise line acted appropriately.  The OPs choose to ruin their own vacation, not the kids.  I voted “no”.

  • lvswhippets

    None of my cruises have ever been upended by kids, but an Amtrak ride was-in 1st class. Kids from toddler to preteen ran up & down the aisles by our cabin shouting etc. The porter did nothing. I complained to Amtrak when I got home & received full refund  of cabin price. But river cruise boats are small & compact so as much as I love children I too would be an unhappy camper if there indeed was a “no children” clause in contract.

  • scapel

    I’m not sure what they should be offered. I think it depends on how disturbed they felt with the children being around. I wouldn’t think it would be very much, but the line did break their own contract and the purchasers of the cruise are do something because of the break in the contract. I would think at least a 50% of the cruise lines profit on each. What about the other cruisers?

  • bodega3

    It hasn’t been proved that this cruise initially stated it was a child free cruise.  This is an important fact that isn’t being shown in print.  Of all the child free tours and resorts that I know of, they are very, very specific in this and state it clearly.

  • bodega3

    Show where it states that their cruises are for adults only.  I can’t find it on their website, can you?

  • Extramail

    The cruise line should have to refund every single passengers fare from that trip so that it would act as a deterrent to the cruise line ever violating that clause again AND, had the passenger attempted to board with, say, a pet, that passenger would have been denied boarding without any compensation. Therefore, the penalty that would have been applied to a passenger should also be applied to the cruise line.

  • technomage1

    I do believe that that a partial refund is in order here.  If I booked a cruise with a no child rule (and no accommodations for children under 12 is pretty clear on that) then I would be upset if I didn’t get that.  It would be the same as if I booked a singles cruise and found it full of married couples, etc, etc.  As hard as it is for some parents to understand, the sound of their child laughing or playing may disturb other people in tight quarters.  But the bottom line here is that they didn’t get the experience that they were promised and paid for.

  • http://twitter.com/donalouisa donalouisa

    An interesting situation. I emailed Vantage and asked about bringing children on board and here’s their response:

    “Hello, Thank
    you for your email. We do have age restrictions; however, we do reserve
    the right to allow children under 12 on our trips. However, our
    itineraries are not designed for younger children. For our age
    guidelines see blow.

    River Cruise – Minimum age 12, When traveling with an adultEscorted Land – Minimum 15, When traveling with an adultVantage Charter Vessels – Minimum 15 When traveling with an adultOcean Cruise – Holland America require at least one pax to be 21 years old in the cabin.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Allan-Jayne/100000343947533 Allan Jayne

    Why did the crew not MANAGE the children and the use of the ship facilities?

  • http://twitter.com/CtxsSolutionLab Citrix Solutions Lab

    I’m wondering if this is in direct response to the incident above.  Maybe they’ve “adjusted their policies” based on this?

  • http://profiles.google.com/kctynan2 Kirsten Tynan

    What would the penalty have been for the couple had they cancelled (i.e. broken their end of the contract)? That would be an appropriate amount to be refunded by the company for its part in breaking the contract. No doubt the company wouldn’t accept payment by way of baked cookies, lawn-mowing or other unwanted services from the customer. They collect cold, hard cash when the contract is broken, and so should the customer.

  • http://profiles.google.com/kctynan2 Kirsten Tynan

    Yeah, there’s nothing like the sound of laughing children to just RUIN a vacation.

    Not everyone is as thrilled with noisy, obnoxious little brats as their parents are. That’s why they frequent adults-only venues.

  • http://profiles.google.com/kctynan2 Kirsten Tynan

    Why should they refuse to board? They were adults. They had a contract. And if they had refused to board, they’d have been out all their money with nothing to show for it.

  • Kimberly Webb

    I don’t know if they live in the area and would be capable of using the voucher…that’s what I find a little disturbing.  “I” would have like to see them recieve at least a “partial” refund…BUT…Here’s my take…”No accomodations for children under 12″ means they don’t have “Happy Meals”, they don’t have “baby sitting”, they don’t have coloring books…etc. ” No one under 18 admitted” (adults only)…Or no one under “12″ admitted (minors over a certian age allowed). These are two very DIFFERENTLY interpreted statements.   Personally I really don’t think Vantage owes them ANYTHING because they didn’t specify that children were “NOT” allowed only that accomodations would not be provided.  NOW the “sticky” part is “if and when” VANTAGE “admitted” that they clearly violated their own policy.  If there is a written statement that “they” violated their policy then Bing-bada-boom…they should refund CASH not a voucher (well at least partial…they DID after all enjoy the trip..except for…).  If it was more of an apology to the customer because their policy was not clearly defined to them…then a voucher is generous.

  • lorenzo

    come on people….you cannot legally say no to kids. Dont you find your lives boring and selfish without them. Please try and live and laugh abit and not take yourselves so seriously