Leaning leaners and the airlines that let ‘em

An actual photo from the flight. My laptop survived.The first thing I noticed about the passenger in seat 9C on a recent US Airways flight from Orlando to Washington was that he was carrying a light sabre.

You know, as in Star Wars.

After we reached our cruising altitude, I got up to use the restroom, and when I returned, I found that he had reclined his seat — all the way. I had a little problem with that because I was in 10C, and I was trying to write a column on my laptop.

The seat pitch in economy class is small enough to give a Lilliputian claustrophobia, so it should come as no surprise that my PC wouldn’t open enough for me to use it.

No problem, I thought. I’m the travel troubleshooter. I can handle this.

“Sir,” I said, as politely as I could. “Would you mind sliding your seat up a notch? I can’t open my laptop with your seat all the way back.”

No answer.

“Sir?” I said, adding a little volume.

Nothing.

I tapped him on his shoulder gently.

“Please,” I said. “I can’t work.”

“I’ve been up since 4 a.m.,” Mr. Star Wars murmured, and turned away.

“What a coincidence,” I said, my blood pressure rising. “So have I.”

I had several options. First, I could escalate the confrontation. (But the man was traveling with a toy; a troubling sign.) I could move to a different seat. Or I could ask a flight attendant to intervene.

I’ll be honest: I felt like smacking Mr. Star Wars with his plastic weapon.

I picked door number three: to bring this ridiculous encounter to the attention of a flight attendant. You’ll probably find his response — and his resolution — to be interesting.

“Kindergarten,” he sighed, when I explained my predicament. “We’re on your side, but there’s not much we can do.”

The attendants didn’t want to confront Mr. Star Wars because they shared my misgivings, that this particular character might not be completely stable. The flight was full, even in first class. Otherwise, I’m pretty sure they would have offered me an upgrade for the rest of the short flight.

“It’s a shared space, isn’t it?” I asked.

“Yes,” said the attendant. “Just because you can lean all the way back doesn’t mean you should.”

How about the empty jumpseat, I asked him. Could I sit there? No — that’s against regulations, he said.

So how did this standoff end? I’ll get to the solution in a second. But first, a few words about who is to blame for this mess.

Ultimately, it’s a passenger’s responsibility to know proper flying etiquette (and don’t laugh –— there is such a thing). But there are other culpable parties. Chief among them, the airline.

Think about it. If the seats in economy class were made for adults, then we wouldn’t have to put up with this childish behavior. If US Airways offered a humane amount of legroom, then Mr. Star Wars could lean back and I could work on my laptop.

Pie in the sky? OK, how about limiting the amount of lean-back on the seats, if you’re going to wedge them that close together? That’s not unreasonable.

Too hard for your aircraft mechanics? Alright, here’s another suggestion: Why not remind passengers that they’re in a shared space and request that they ask before leaning. Mr. Star Wars nearly cracked the screen on my laptop when he forced his seat all the way back.

Had he done that, then I would have been forced to use my light sabre.

I’m kidding. I always pack a loaded antique pistol in my carry-on bag. The TSA hasn’t stopped me yet.

If an airline can’t manage to remind its passengers to practice common courtesy, then it should empower its own employees to step in and mediate the inevitable conflicts. I could tell the flight attendants just didn’t want to get involved.

I loved their fix, though. An attendant opened a tray table in the galley, I set up my computer and worked while standing until we started our descent. Then I wedged myself back into 10C for the rest of the flight.

So what does all of this mean to you? Next time you feel like taking a nap on a plane, please, please, ask the person behind you if it’s OK to go back.

You don’t want to be a rude recliner.

  • emanon256

    If you had bothered to read my post, you would notice that I posted what he said verbatim. Those were his words, after reading your post, to be fare I followed up with him and posted why he said it didn’t work. I cut and pasted his message. So much for trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    If you can’t take any criticism and feel you must try to distort the truth an discredit everyone who offers feedback on your product, I suggest you stay off the internet, maybe just don’t even bother talking to the public in general. I really thought your product was a good idea and was sad after hearing what my co worker said. I was hoping you would say something like, “That was an old model, we have improved, yes it doesn’t always work, etc.” after posting his reasons. But seeing how you behave in public, I have lost all respect for you and your product.

  • Guest

    I recently listend to a story on This American Life where the protagonist used a product called Knee Defender to limit the recline of the seat in front of him. It seems completely passive agressive, but I’d be curious to see what the FA would have said if Chris used something like that.

    What a sad state these airlines are in that a product like this even has to exist.

  • KneeDefender

    As for the verbatim aspect of your post – you are correct, I am wrong. Mea culpa on that.

  • Carrie Charney

    I need to recline my seat just a bit to alleviate pressure on my lower back. And I do mean a little bit. I don’t feel I encroach on the space in back of me, but I am very uncomfortable in a straight-up position. Usually, the small commuter planes are already comfortable for my back, but the bigger planes are not.

  • Adam_The_Man

    If someone uses that on me, I would sue them and the airline. My personal space ends where my seat stops reclining. If someone tries to deny me a service I paid for, then I have a serious problem with them.

  • SoBeSparky

    Silly? Not when you live in a corner of the country, like Miami Beach (me), or LAX, or SEA, or BOS/NYC. Lots of people live in the four corners of the continental USA, not a silly extreme at all.

  • KneeDefender

    And you’d sue them for… What?

    In any event, even without the person behind you using Knee Defender, your seat recline may well be stopped by that person’s knees. That’s it – The person sitting behind you, in a normal sitting position, if his/her legs are long (specifically, his/her femur), you’re likely to hit their knee caps before your seat reaches its full recline.

    And that’s why the product is called “Knee Defender™”

  • KneeDefender

    Wow. People have down-voted my comment above/here for agreeing with Ed Boston that I’d made a mistake. He corrected me, I agreed that I’d been unclear – and that gets down-voted by 3 people (as of this moment). Huh.

  • emanon256

    Whats more interesting to me is that the originally insulting post I am replying to, as well as your post addressing my friends concerns all of a sudden changed drastically from the original reply e-mails I got from Disqus. And I am not talking about the crossing out of lines, suddenly your tone changed and entire paragraphs and messages changed.

    I will keep my original messages in tact, but I think this is a good for @ChrisElliott to start moderating comments again.

    You can attract more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. Perhaps begin more polite and professional in the first place and not covering your tracks later will serve you well.

  • KneeDefender

    True. Well, sorta true. Those seats are not necessarily “next generation”.

    Those types of bottom-slides-forward seats have been around and available to the airlines for about 10 years, but US carriers haven’t bought them. Some Asian carriers, yes; US, not so much (AFAIK).

  • Julie Northrop

    I actually have to recline my seat just a hair, and I’m talking just out of the locked upright position, or else I am in pain. I have 2 rods in my back holding my spine straight, so sitting in a rigid position gets quite uncomfortable for me. However, since I know the person behind me has precious little space, I only use the bare minimum. While I know I could fully recline, It would be rude for me to do so. I’ve never had an issue with the person behind me thus far, and I’ve never had issues with people in front of me wanting to recline. I think that by locking the seats so that no one can recline is just absurd. If the person behind me were to have an issue with me reclining, I would be perfectly willing to work out something with them so that we both are comfortable. I’ve even switched seats with a gentleman who was very tall, and he was appreciative that I was willing to do that so that we both were happy.

  • KneeDefender

    Maybe when you corrected me on my “verbatim” mistake, you didn’t expect me to apologize, but then I did – and that surprised you.

    Hey, I expressed myself, you pointed out that I made a mistake, someone else said that I’d been unclear in another post, I apologized for those and moved on. Same old, same old.

  • Julie Northrop

    I don’t think you should have shut up and done nothing, but what about asking him to switch seats with you. This way, he could recline as far as he wanted without causing you pain, and you could sit in comfort. I’ve switched seats with people before because I need to recline due to my back. I never recline all the way, just enough so that I am not in the locked upright position. I think there are other ways to handle it rather than resorting to tipping the chair. I’m sorry you had to seek medical treatment though, no one should have to go through that after flying.

  • Adam_The_Man

    If someone doesn’t fit in a seat, perhaps they should fly a different airline or pay for a bigger seat. They could also buy two seats, I mean the one in front of them and theirs.

    But in no way does someone have a right to forcibly prevent me from reclining a seat that I pay for, that is supposed to recline. There is a reason when booking a seat the airlines say which seats have limited recline, and I don’t choose them.

    If someone asked me to move up a little, I would do it. But if they prevent me from reclining the start, then they are looking for trouble. Your product should be called “I’m too wimpy to ask someone to give me more space, so I deny all of their rights without saying a word.”

  • Adam_The_Man

    I could not agree more, thank you!

  • KneeDefender

    I agree, people need to fit in the seat – while the plane is at the gate. People with long legs do fit in the seat at the gate. After that, their long legs may block your recline – while the plane is in the air.

    Knee Defender is no more “wimpy” than the lock on the bathroom door. Both of them mean “Ocupado”.

  • EirBryn

    Awesome suggestion! Never thought of that! As for me, if I feel the need (which isn’t often) to recline my seat I always ask the person behind me if they mind. Most of the time we’re able to find a happy medium.

  • Adam_The_Man

    Except someone paid for a seat that is supposed to recline. No one is going to be in the bathroom the entire flight.

  • Mr. B

    Maybe someone already called you out for this Chris, but the hyperbole is both over the top and inaccurate.

    You open by saying that, “After we reached our cruising altitude, I got up to use the restroom,
    and when I returned, I found that he had reclined his seat — all the
    way.”

    Then when you are trying to gin us up, you say, “Mr. Star Wars nearly cracked the screen on my laptop when he forced his seat all the way back.”

    So which is it? They cannot both be true statements of fact. If you are going to mislead your audience like this, then you have no leg to stand on when trying to advocate for consumers who are misled. I like your message Chris, but please keep it straight, else you lose valuable credibility.

  • emanon256

    Except you completely changed around, removed, and added sections, only crossing out what I specifically addressed. That is covering your tracks. Although, I don’t think I should even bother replying to you anymore as its clear you have issues, so this will be my last message. Enjoy your life, and good luck to you.

  • KneeDefender

    Well, enjoy your issues. And I’ll enjoy helping people who need Knee Defender.

  • Adam_The_Man

    Oh, and a lock on the bathroom door is to keep someone out. Your product is more along the lines of locking someone in.

  • KneeDefender

    “Oh, and a lock on the bathroom door is to keep someone out. Your product is more along the lines of locking someone in.”

    Not from where I’m sitting. (Rimshot!)

  • TonyA_says

    Cathay Pacific 777s have had this for years. It is like a bucket seat with a fixed shell. The back and the bottom slides down and forward, respectively. This is my standard equipment in coach for my Asia flights and I’ve got to say there are not really comfortable; but they solve the reclining issue.

  • Andrew F

    I find myself in the described situation twice every day — on an NYC express bus. I consider being able to recline my RIGHT. Consequently, I NEVER argue with the person in front of me exercising this right, no matter how uncomfortable that makes me sometimes. The only exception would be if the seat is broken and reclines too much. Like most people, I try to catch some Z’s on the bus. My plane trips are a lot less frequent, but I treat them the same way.

    Please, Chris, you don’t have a right to work. Sleep, read a book, watch a movie on an Android tablet or phone. Let the recliner recline and pass out.

  • Ed Boston

    They may be no danger to those safely locked behind that door, but they can still be a danger to the rest of the people on board. NO ONE should have to shut up and bear it.

  • Tony K

    My wife and I were on a KLM Asia flight from AMS to HKG and just as the meal service started the person in front of me dropped his seat back and went to sleep.

    When the flight attendant tried to serve my meal, I pointed out that there was not sufficient space to put the tray on my table, open it and have access to it.

    I asked the flight attendant to ask the person to return his seat to the upright, at least so that I could eat my meal.

    She told me that she could not do this as he was asleep. I asked her, again, to do this. Again, she refused as he was asleep.

    My meal was getting cold so I hammered his seat, he awoke in a panic at which, I informed the now startled F.E. that he was now awake and would she please ask him to allow me to eat my meal.

    It worked for me.

    I always ask the person seated behind me if they mind if I recline my seat. It’s common courtesy.

  • y_p_w

    I thought the flight was only 2 hours if it’s nonstop MCO-DCA. Of course I realize it could also be any number of permutations with one stop or to Dulles.

    However, maybe the Amtrak Silver Meteor next time? I recently took a short trip on a long-distance line riding in a Superliner coach car. I was amazed at how much legroom and recline there was, without impacting anyone behind me. The footrest was a nice touch. I don’t know if the Amfleet coach cars on the Silver Meteor have quite that much space, but I’m thinking probably yes. And even if someone was being a jerk, one could relocate to a lounge car or a cafe car.

  • http://twitter.com/philoprof philoprof

    Ok, here is what I do. As soon as the aircraft is off and wheels up I take the inflight magazine, roll it up, drop the table and wedge it on the arm and seat back. I used to have a piece of PVC pipe that I cut a section out of and set it on the arm. Here is a device I have considered – http://www.gadgetduck.com/goods/kneedefender.html

  • MarkieA

    So, what would you do?

  • MarkieA

    Heaven forbid you should experience any inconvenience in order to be polite and considerate. Wouldn’t want that to happen.

  • MarkieA

    But I guarantee that if I asked someone to un-recline their seat a smidge in order to allow me to move my legs at all, and they didn’t, I would be tugging on the back of their seat every 10 minutes or so in order to get out of my seat.

  • MarkieA

    Like everyone so far on this topic with similar attitudes, you express your “personal space” as encompassing your body to a certain space BEHIND you. What do you feel is your personal space IN FRONT of you? I believe that the folks who disagree with you – me included – would feel that their personal space extends to some nebulous amount of air in front of them, too; and that you’re violating that part of their personal space by backing into it with your seat. Neither one of us is RIGHT and the other WRONG; it’s just that we have differing opinions as to personal space.

  • MarkieA

    Incredible! I’m 5’10″ – hardly tall – and, if someone slams their seat back to full recline, they’re gonna bang my knees. I should pay for an upgrade? Really?

  • MarkieA

    I think that a 25-year old male would have gotten a completely different reaction if he was carrying a teddy bear. Not saying it would be fair or justified, just believe it to be so,

  • MarkieA

    Good for you. I’m always flummoxed when I’m told that it’s rude to be rude to rude people. My theory is, if rude people are allowed to be rude with no consequences, they will NEVER learn and NEVER change. If you confront them with their rudeness, they MAY change. They may not, I know. But, at least you know you tried and, well, there is that little bit of satisfaction :)

  • MarkieA

    How does one teach manners to an adult? And if they simply ignore you and continue being rude, you should simply give up, too. And let them go on their merry way, tromping on people, ignoring common courtesy, flouting manners.

  • MarkieA

    Do you really think that someone who ignores a polite, reasonable request by cramming earbuds into hi head is going to go through the incredible inconvenience of switching seats? Especially after digging in his heels on the issue in the first place? What color is the sky where you live?

  • MarkieA

    Perfect!

  • MarkieA

    Perfect!

  • MarkieA

    Are you actually suggesting that someone might get in trouble – and by that, I assume you mean LEGAL trouble – for sneezing on someone? Rude? Yes. Uncouth? Absolutely. Liable to get you sued? C’mon.

  • MarkieA

    Are you actually suggesting that someone might get in trouble – and by that, I assume you mean LEGAL trouble – for sneezing on someone? Rude? Yes. Uncouth? Absolutely. Liable to get you sued? C’mon.

  • Ed Boston

    It is not a matter of “inconvenience” but one of practicality.

  • Ed Boston

    It is not a matter of “inconvenience” but one of practicality.

  • Nigel Appleby

    I never recline my seat because most aircraft seats are too reclined for me even in the, so called, upright position. I think the airlines are doomed if they do and doomed if they don’t, but I think that Carrie, Julie and I show that different angle of seatback is required by different people, perhaps reduce the amount of recline, but allow some.
    I’ve been on flights where my knees have stopped the seat in front reclining and one where I stood the whole way because the only way I could get into my seat was to have my knees up on the closed table and my feet well off the floor.

  • mszabo

    Seems like the amount of recline would be very dependent on the screen size which we don’t currently know. I don’t think the decline required to interfere with a 17″ laptop would be all that much.

  • RetiredNavyphotog

    Don’t pick on Chris!
    He is the only one I know of that actually is able to solve folks’ problems.

  • RetiredNavyphotog

    I like the sneezing – have to try that next time.
    But I really like the air vent blowing on top of the head.
    Why? I hardly ever recline. And if I do recline on an international flight, I look to see who is behind me and I ask if it is OK.

  • RetiredNavyphotog

    Seems like it is always the short women who slam their seats back.

  • mythsayer

    You know, here’s the thing – your right to be “comfortable” behind me doesn’t trump my right to be comfortable IN MY PURCHASED SEAT. You can ASK if I could not recline my seat all the way, and I will probably say yes, depending on your situation, but if it’s just because you’re tall, forget it.

    I have massive back issues and I’m simply not comfortable in airline seats unless they are reclined. I mean, I am talking MASSIVE PAIN if I don’t recline. Not a little pain. MASSIVE PAIN, as in, I want to scream it’s so bad. I had neck surgery for a herniated disc, but I need more surgeries to fully resolve the issue (and before you start bashing me about why it’s not done, it’s because I live on a tiny military base in Japan and just getting the MRI for my neck took 10 months and was like pulling teeth… I currently have a request in to move home so I can get my surgeries done in a timely manner, so I have reasons for why it’s not done).

    So, no offense, but I just don’t think your right trumps my rights. My solution would be to switch seats with you and your family if possible so you can sit in front of me. I’m ALWAYS open to suggestions. But if the only answer is “I’m not comfortable so you can’t recline your seat”, that’s not good enough for me. I have a right to be comfortable, too. And, you know what? I try to buy economy comfort seats that have more leg room, just so I can avoid this issue. Sometimes people have legitimate reasons to recline, so I think it’s really rude to just cast aspersions on everyone who likes to recline. You don’t know their situation, just like I don’t know yours. So can’t everyone work together to find something that works?