Can this trip be saved? Help, my airline wants more miles

Glenn Valentine wants to use his frequent flier points to get from Orlando to Sao Paolo, but Delta Air Lines wants too many miles for the trip.

“The system wanted an additional 50,000 to 100,000 Skymiles [for one leg],” he says.

That’s not uncommon. Other airlines, notably the old Continental, had a double or nothing program for frequent fliers trying to redeem their miles.

Is it right for an airline to keep asking for miles? Should I step in and ask Delta to drop its demand?

Before I continue, a few notations about “Can this trip be saved.” Just because I’m asking the question doesn’t mean I don’t already know the answer (although that doesn’t necessarily apply to this week’s case).

Also, the fact that I’m asking if a trip can be saved doesn’t mean I’m in any way endorsing a case. It only means that I’m asking for your opinion.

Back to Valentine.

He’s concerned that readers will think he’s a “former elite flier” with the “entitlement” mentality, but I assured him we would all be on our best behavior. Valentine is a long-time reader of this site, and I’m sure we’ll judge his case on its merits.

In his initial correspondence with Delta, he describes how he tried to use his miles to fly to Brazil, and managed to get two coveted business-class tickets from New York to Sao Paolo for 100,0000 miles per seat.

Now imagine my dismay that in order to organize my travel from Orlando the system wanted an additional 50,000 to 100,000 Skymiles!

Despite the claim that the online system will “Mix and match dates, cabins, and prices to get the best possible deal.”, it wouldn’t allow me to examine the possibility of coach seats from MCO-JFK, nor does it appear that these seats would have been included as part of the over-all travel (like they used to be), even if I could have looked for them?

Ultimately, I felt my only option to stretch out my hard earned Skymiles was to purchase roundtrip tickets from Orlando to JFK, in order to connect with my award tickets from JFK to Sao Paolo.

You may call me spoiled, but in my 17 years as a Medallion level flyer with Delta, I never felt that I should have to resort to purchasing additional tickets in order to take advantage of reasonably valued award tickets. Therefore, I would also like to ask for at least a partial, if not full, refund of the costs for the domestic tickets.

Delta’s reply? So sorry, but that’s how the system works.

It is no secret that the number of seats offered for award travel is limited, and I certainly understand that not being able to travel as desired can be disappointing. Availability is monitored on a regular basis and determined by many factors including seasonal trends, peak travel dates, and destinations.

We do, however, offer three award levels. Members have the ability to mix and match all three award levels on the same ticket. While the highest level requires the most mileage, it also provides the greatest degree of flexibility and this option may meet your requirements. It allows members the opportunity to travel almost anytime seats are available.

It is also important to mention that we monitor our award seat access throughout the availability period of any given flight. While seats on some flights may be allocated up to 331 days prior to flight departure, this may not always be the best time to look. Award seats can be opened as late as the last week, or even the day prior to flight departure.

As you can imagine, the popularity of our program means that passengers traveling to our most popular destinations are all looking for the same limited availability.

With that said, I am truly sorry for your disappointment with the reservation you currently have, and I apologize that I am unable to resolve issues related to future date travel.

Form letter. Valentine appealed to the higher-ups at Delta. Here’s their response.

Rest assured that your comments are not lost in anyone at Delta Air Lines. While I am truly sorry for your utter dissatisfaction with our program, we appreciate your taking the time to share your feelings with us. Your feedback is important to us as we are constantly enhancing our loyalty program to keep it strong and of value to our customers.

As to your request for complimentary upgrades, these are not goodwill gestures we provide for flight disruptions or service issues. It is not our intent to judge the merits of individual requests, but to maintain some consistency in and integrity of our upgrade inventory due to the high value and demand of our forward cabins. I know this is not the answer you were hoping for, and I am sorry to disappoint you.

Again, I apologize. Your support is important to us, and I thank you for your additional time and effort. We look forward to the privilege of serving your air travel needs again soon.

Valentine is appealing his case to the CEO, but he’d also like me to mediate this.

I’m not sure I can find a way to argue for Delta to reimburse his domestic ticket. But requiring him to pay 50,000 to 100,000 miles for a domestic ticket seems a little high, doesn’t it?

What should Delta do to make this one-time elite-level customer happy? And should I mediate this?

Survey says … no.

Update (11:30 a.m.): Because of a technical glich, comments on this post didn’t work this morning. They are now up and running.

  • Christine

    Anytime I try to book a free flight with Delta, I go to their calendar to check out dates that say “low” demand. And, it virtually never fails – I click on the “low” dates and I rarely get the lowest mileage flights. Just the other day, I tried to book a February round trip from Louisville to San Diego first class, I must admit. I followed my normal routine and the only options I was given were 80,000 mile trips. I even tried Cincy to San Diego and the “cheapest” option I received was 62,500 miles. My husband has 1.8 million miles with Delta and we only use his miles for me to be able to accompany him on the occasional business trip which means he NEVER uses his miles, he always pays for his trips. Stupid, I know.

  • http://nmdfreelance.com Nancy Dickinson

    Maybe I’m being obtuse but I had to read this three times before I felt I had a grasp of what was going on. After reading it, I felt that “No”, you shouldn’t mediate it.

    Yes, the OP is obviously a great fan of Delta Sky Miles. Yes, he was looking to use a lot of miles for a trip to Brazil. Yes, Delta wanted a high number of miles for the trip. In my opinion, the OP has very few choices and he wasn’t happy with what was being offered to him.

    Not knowing the time of year the OP wanted to go to Sao Paolo leaves me at a bit of a disadvantage. If he wanted to be there over a major holiday, then, yes, the miles will be higher because the seats will be fewer.

    In addition, he had the option of using his miles as a separate trip (thereby making the “system” think he JUST wanted to go to JFK and back, not on to Sao Paolo) My guess is the miles would have been lower. I would imagine the flights between MCO and JFK are plentiful.

    I DO see the OP’s point, that the system seems to have failed him, but I really don’t understand why Delta should have to reimburse him for the cost of the tickets to JFK. I rather look upon the miles system as a “buyer’s beware” type program. I mean, I’ve looked at coach seats just to Indy from Tucson that were 100,000 miles or more, round trip. Is it excessive? Yes it is. Is it fair? No it’s not. Did I write Delta a letter telling them they needed to give me a free or reduced fare ticket? No I did not.

    It is what it is. There are lots and lots of Sky Mile members out there in the world that are willing to use their miles to fly, no matter what it costs them in the form of miles. If they change this for one person, they have to change it for all.

  • John

    This OP strikes me as nothing more than an Elite FF who feels that they are entitled much like the previous postings about the Elite FF who held First Class seats and cancelled them prior to take off to increase the chance of an upgrade.

    I am an elite FF. I travel multiple times every year on “free” tickets. I’ve lost track of the number of times that I have changed my business plans or been stuck with a less than ideal routing in order to get the lower “priced” ticket. The “price” of the “free” tickets is dictated by a number of factors including the airline’s potential to sell seats plus the number and class of tickets sold. I have found flights with no “cheap” tickets only to check the seat map and find that every seat on the airplane is still available.

    The short answer is if you are going to fly on a FF ticket be prepared to change your dates, change your routing, make plans well in advance and hope that you are score the cheap tickets. If you are not, enjoy the flight. You paid less than the guy sitting next to you.

    Please save the emails to Chris for case where you were truly wronged.

  • jamru

    I sympathize with the OP’s plight since I’ve been in similar situations with Delta Sky Miles. It does often seem like there’s a bit of a bait and switch with in terms of what they publish as typical redemption levels and what’s actually required for a given flight. I think he was right to voice his dissatisfaction to Delta. But I’m not sure this merits mediation, nor that it merits reimbursement.

  • Monica

    I agree with most that this shouldn’t be moderated. Yes, the points cost seems a little excessive. But even a FF has to know that their status does not automatically mean they get the best price (points) on the best flights for the best seats. Delta still has to make money, too. There has to be compromise somewhere. The OP is still ahead of the game by getting better seats for his money than others on the flight. Something is always better than nothing.

  • Arizona Road Warrior

    I voted ‘No’.

    The key to reward travel especially First Class and/or Business Class reward travel is flexibility because the number of seats offered for award travel is limited. To add to the ‘problem’ is when you don’t live in a city such as LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, IAH, ATL, JFK, PHL, etc. that serves as a ‘hub’ for international travel.

    I live in PHX and when I look for FC or BC reward travel seats, I will give LAX, SFO, SEA, etc. as the departure city not PHX. If I can get reward travel seats from PHX to LAX, SFO, SEA, etc. that is great. If not, I am okay to purchase tickets from PHX to LAX, SFO, SEA, YVR, etc. because of the value of the reward tickets. I have cashed in 90,000 to 120,000 miles for tickets with values ranging from $ 7,000 to $ 17,000…so what is the big deal to spend $ 150 for a flight from PHX to LAX? By the way, I haven’t purchased tickets from PHX to LAX, SFO, etc. yet.

    I am assuming that OP is flying on Delta metal instead of flying on a Sky Team partner metal since Delta is the only Sky Team airline that flies from JFK to SAO. The cost for a Business Class seat on Delta is $ 5,285 on the dates (leaving 12/6/10 and returning 12/13/10) that I randomly chose. The cost to fly coach from MCO to JFK is $ 185. It would be nice to fly FC from MCO to JFK for this 2.5-hr flight but I will be more concern about flying Business Class (Delta has only Business Class and Coach) on this 10.25-hr flight from JFK to SAO.

    Did the OP checked for another Sky Team partner? He can fly on AeroMexico from MCO to MEX to SAO instead of flying Delta metal from JFK to SAO. However, I don’t know if AeroMexico Business Class product and services is the same or better than Delta…so I can’t comment if he can have a better experience on a Sky Team parnter.

    This past summer, I was looking to cash in my Delta miles for some FC\BC tickets. I called ten times over a period of three weeks and every time I told the Delta CSR to look only for flights on Sky Team partners NOT Delta. My reasons (which I didn’t tell the Delta CSR) were 1) the Delta flights required three times (3X) the miles and 2) the FC\BC products and services on five of the six Sky Team partners for the route that we want to traveled are better than Delta. Every time, the Delta CSR looked for flights on Delta and didn’t want to look for flights on Sky Team partners until I repeated my request for non-Delta flights a few times.

  • Arizona Road Warrior

    @ jamru – “It does often seem like there’s a bit of a bait and switch with in terms of what they publish as typical redemption levels and what’s actually required for a given flight.”
    - – - – - – -
    I have found that airlines are pretty good about disclosing redemption levels for rewards, the restrictions and etc. Typically, an airline will have two to four levels of redemptions that is based upon ‘demand’; therefore, different amount of miles.

    IMHO, the mistake that several FF members make is flying their airline instead of an alliance partner. There is only one mileage level for redemption…for example, it is 120,000 Delta miles per ticket for a Business Class ticket on a Sky Team partner to fly from the US to Asia; it is 90,000 US Airways miles per ticket for a Business Class ticket on a Star Alliance partner to fly from the US to Asia; etc. Again, it is my opinion that the FC and BC products and services on US-based airlines are generally (there are some exceptions) behind the non-US based airlines.

  • Kate

    I don’t think you should mediate because of caveat emptor. Delta is the worst airline I’ve ever flown and, after one horrendous experience in which I was physically assaulted by a Delta baggage delivery person, I have never flown them again. I can’t say enough bad things about Delta. This traveler should just take his business elsewhere.

  • Mel

    Like Nancy, I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I “got it.” So, the OP got great seats to SP from NY AND he STILL wants Delta to either pay for or discount his trip from FL to NY? And he’s worried that we might think he’s elitist and spoiled? He’s right. He’s upset that he has to purchase a ticket to get to NY so he can use his free tickets?? I can’t imagine tickets to NY are that expensive and 100K miles for Business Class to Brazil sounds ok to me.

  • Adele

    MCO is a very popular destination, and notoriously difficult to get frequent flyer tickets into or out of. Did the OP try some of the other nearby airports, TPA, JAX, etc.? Heck, I’d drive a few hours for a free ticket.

  • Arizona Road Warrior

    @ Christine – “Just the other day, I tried to book a February round trip from Louisville to San Diego first class, I must admit. I followed my normal routine and the only options I was given were 80,000 mile trips. I even tried Cincy to San Diego and the “cheapest” option I received was 62,500 miles.”
    - – - – — –
    The lowest mileage redemption for a domestic First Class ticket on US Airways is 50,000 miles so 80,000 miles isn’t that bad…yes, it is a ‘premium’ of 30,000 miles but if you really want to go to San Diego, it is not too bad.

    @ Christine – “My husband has 1.8 million miles with Delta and we only use his miles for me to be able to accompany him on the occasional business trip which means he NEVER uses his miles, he always pays for his trips. Stupid, I know.”
    - – - – - – -
    I don’t think that it is stupid. I don’t understand people that will spend 25,000 miles to 60,000 miles for a domestic reward seat when the fare is $ 250 as an example. To me, the real value of FF miles is for the use of FC and BC seats for international travel…you can cash in 90,000 to 120,000 miles (these amounts will depend upon your FF program) for tickets that could cost $ 5,000 to $ 15,000+. Another option (it will depend upon your airline) is to purchase a coach seat then use miles to upgrade to FC.

  • MeanMeosh

    Looks like the traveler just discovered what so many others figured out long ago – Delta’s FF program is just plain putrid. It’s notorious for giving little to no availability at the lower redemption levels. It warrants a complaint to DL, yes, but not any intervention on your part. He should take his business elsewhere. If he’s still Medallion, I’m sure AA, UA, etc. would be more than happy to status match.

    And besides, he should look on the bright side. He just paid a coach fare from MCO to JFK, a few hundred bucks at most, to fly to Brazil and back, and business class at that for the JFK-GRU-JFK portion. That’s a pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

  • Arizona Road Warrior

    @ Adele – “MCO is a very popular destination, and notoriously difficult to get frequent flyer tickets into or out of. Did the OP try some of the other nearby airports, TPA, JAX, etc.? Heck, I’d drive a few hours for a free ticket.”
    - – - – - – — – – - -
    I don’t know when the OP is traveling but when I did a few fares searches on Orbtiz, the fare for a Delta ticket between MCO and JFK was under $ 200. So what is the big deal to spend $ 186 for a seat in economy on the 2.5-hr flight from MCO to JFK then spend 100,000 miles for a seat in business class on the 10.25-hr flight from JFK to SAO?

  • John

    I think that it’s pretty much a known fact that DL has the worst frequent flyer program in the USA when it comes to redeeming miles (I believe that Sky Miles are nicknamed “Sky Pesos”). It’s the rule rather than the expection to find award options that require ridiculous amounts of miles for redemptions, especially when compared to the likes of maybe AA or AS. That said, if I understand this situation correctly, this should definitely NOT be mediated. Why? Because DL is under no obligation to anyone to offer any award seats on any flight at any particular mileage level. In essence, I think that this is no different than someone writing to an airline because he feels that their tickets are too expensive. Too bad, so sad.

  • Troy Gorda

    While I don’t think this is worth mediating, I got a kick out of their response:

    It is no secret that the number of seats offered for award travel is limited

    I’m pretty sure that isn’t advertised at any point until you try to utilize their program. Yes we all know it and anyone that has traveled much learns it but I still didn’t expect them to use their deficiency as an excuse or defense to their customers. Pretty soon responses from travel providers will be, “well everyone knows we are ripping off everyone for as much as we can, what are YOU complaining for?”. LOL

    I encourage everyone to donate miles to military programs that help our fighting men and women get home or have their families be able to travel and boycott bogus programs such as these as much as possible. Don’t purchase more miles, don’t make it a cash cow and certainly don’t give them any “loyalty”, I don’t know of any legacy airline that has earned it.

  • Mike Z

    I read the post this morning and voted no. I honestly think that the only reason this story was posted was to show people and give people the forum to complain how crappy the miles programs are.

    As to the story, the OP reserved a flight between JFK and San Paulo, not from his original city. Why on earth should an airline then be responsible to get him to JFK. That would be like me getting a ticket from LAX to hawaii then expecting the airline to get me from CLE to LAX so I can take that flight. If he wanted a flight from his original destination, he should have just booked it or moved the dates so that he got what he wanted.

    IMHO as someone said, most of these miles programs are a waste unless you use the points internationally. They keep raising the amount of points you need for a ticket, then they charge you a fee to redeem the points. Plus, at least the program that I used to be in, you still had to pay the taxes. It was better off just buying a cheap coach ticket to fly between cities in the US.

    I save my points and redeem them for gift cards that have actual value.

  • Dang

    I must agree that Delta Skymiles website is hard to find Skysaver “LOW” dates. Like CHRISTINE had said, even you click on the LOW date, the total miles calculated required rarely at EXPECTED LOW as indicated…unless the day after the traveling dates are also LOW if the flights occur more that 1 day of travel. Same pattern for MEDIUM.
    I guest it’s more a Web Programmation Issue additional to Availability Issue and Delta is not clear about that and create confusion and dissatisfaction.
    So it takes a lot of times to find LOW possibilities.
    By experience, I found more availabilities when booking far ahead (11 months) the dates I want to travel or very near (less than 2 week) the dates I like too.
    So the key is always flexibility that most of us don’t have unless we are retirees… even then, nobody can know for sure 11 months in advance the time we need to travel.
    I found Star Alliance have more availabilities, but, the cheapest mileage to Asia is on Delta Skymiles 60000 compared to 75000 for economy ticket to Asia.
    In the other hand, International Business Class and First Class are cheaper at Star Alliance and the availabilities are plentiful. On Delta Skymiles, booking First Class at LOW is almost impossible on International Routes.

  • Meg

    I get that the miles programs are somewhat of a hot topic these days, and understandably so. What I can’t seem to process is why some OPs purchase something (ie: plane tickets, an extra night, etc) and THEN expect a refund. Wouldn’t a prudent traveler secure in writing that they would get a refund BEFORE they make such a purchase? Now, I understand that there are clearly some instances where checking before-hand is nearly impossible, but if time allows it why wouldn’t one check up on that before wasting their money? Just my humble opinion.

  • Mary Graham

    Points programs just aren’t worth it. The good customer is….not valued, the end.

  • Glenn

    Hi All, Glenn here:
    This was more a point of principle than a worry about the cost or quality of my Orlando to JFK seats:

    For all the years that I was earning points (and using them), I could fly First and Business class all the way from Orlando to Europe and back for 80K miles, no problem. When I booked for Sao Paolo (GRU), I was able to find the JFK to GRU for 100K miles, but as soon as I added Orlando, the system was asking for 200K miles! So I went ahead and purchased the MCO-JFK portion for cash, and probably would have lived with it.

    BUT, what set me off was the advertisement I saw on a recent business flight on Delta — “A Loyalty Program should be Loyal” — , I guess I felt that such blatantly false advertising was like rubbing salt in the wounds, and I wanted to voice my opinion to the Delta powers-that-be.

    @Arizona: regarding Skyteam metal:
    Using Delta metal from JFK to Sao Paolo cost $56 in taxes and fees per ticket. Using Aeromexico from Orlando to Sao Paolo was going to cost $458 in taxes and fees per ticket! (Apparently, there is a $380 landing fee for Mexico City ).

    As for flexibility, our originally planned 2 week trip in October ended up being a 3 week trip in December (to find the low point seats).

  • David Z

    Darn you, Chris. I was going to initially comment here but saw comments were closed, and now I forgot what I was first going to say. :)

    Anyway, no too. I’m rather surprised when you asked:

    “Is it right for an airline to keep asking for miles?”

    I’m sure lots of people will say no, but…why not when it is their program? I’d say no if, say, they asked for more miles after the OP booked the flight with it, but not before.

    Of course, the OP is free to take his business elsewhere as a few said. Hopefully he won’t encounter the same issue with the next airline and probably email you again about it.

  • Glenn

    @David Z:
    In a manner of speaking, the airline DID ask for more points after the fact…. after the fact of the terms of the program under which I earned the miles.

    As I said in one of my letters to Delta: “While I concede that Delta has the LEGAL right to change program rules to my detriment, I still do not feel that is has the MORAL or ETHICAL right to do so in such a scathing manner”.

    In one way, I can be thankful. Since I have use the majority of my miles over the years (when they were worth something), I’m not going to be feeling the pain as much as those who still have their millions of miles to use.

  • father212

    The last time we flew with AA, a few months ago, on our miles, they flew us all the way from Seattle to Buenos Aires, all for 40k x 2. It has been our experience that AA will fly us on any “Airlines”. We flew with Alaska Airlines from Seattle to Barrow and NW from Seattle to Manila via Tokyo as an example. AA does not even fly to those worlds. We have been “lucky” with AA and they have tried to accomodate us as well as we try to accomodate them. NEVER have we been unable to obtain seats anytime we decide to fly somewhere. And we are not even elite. And I don’t work for them. Or any airlines for that matter.